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Politics

About Labour's next leader

120 replies

OxfordCat · 13/12/2019 16:32

So there'll be a battle between Momentum and the social democrats / centrists. I am totally against Long-Bailey who's been groomed as Corbyn mark 2 for a while now. I think she's awful. As much as I personally agree with the majority of views on MN and favour Kier Starmer, if I try to take myself out of my remain bubble for a minute and think about those northern leave voting 'wall' constituencies / Workington man etc etc, would they really go for Starmer? I'm not sure if they'd see him as another Westminster elite. (As they would Thornberry / Benn).

So thinking about how Labour can win back their 'heartlands' could Lisa Nandy be a goer? She voted remain but strongly sided with leave after the referendum (soft Brexit) and is from Wigan, popular with her constituents. A genuine human being, in it for the right reasons, articulate with quick intellect.

However she is a woman! Which the gammon might not like...

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OxfordCat · 13/12/2019 22:07

And your use of the expression gammon is one of the myriad of reasons why the Labour Party tanked last night.
This. Alan Johnson pointed out John Landesman and Momentums contempt for the working class last night. He was spot on. Patronising and contemptuous at the same time.

Gammon isn't a class based expression actually.

We have an enormous problem with systematic sexism and misogyny in politics in case you hadn't noticed. Hence my concerns that an otherwise credible candidate like Lisa Nandy wouldn't get a fair opportunity.

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Antigonads · 13/12/2019 22:14

I didn’t equate gammon with working class.

I know exactly what it refers to.

OxfordCat · 13/12/2019 22:23

So you'll understand the challenge for female candidates then.

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BubblesBuddy · 13/12/2019 22:53

I thought ooop north, women not cooking on a Sunday lunchtime were “pudding burners”. All those men wanting women back in the kitchen!

Sadly many men don’t like outspoken women. They say they are strident, gobby and loud. They never say they are confident, well informed and assertive!

The Labour voting mechanism as it stands favours left wing Momentum policies and candidates. Other rational people are marginalised.

Swirlygirl · 13/12/2019 22:58

So you'll understand the challenge for female candidates then

What female candidate will stand up for sex based rights though?

Give me ANYBODY that does this and I’ll campaign for them!

SingingLily · 13/12/2019 23:22

I didn’t equate gammon with working class.

Neither did I. I also know what it means. It's pejorative. If you feel entirely comfortable about using such a dismissive term, OP, then you are unlikely to get what you would regard as a satisfactory answer to your question.

OxfordCat · 13/12/2019 23:44

Others mentioned class lily. Also I'm not interested in your judgements or you trying to silence me. The term refers to the swathe of misogynistic and racist archaic and sometimes violent attitudes prevalent in England at present, especially since the referendum, experienced by numerous female MP's (although dismissed as humbug by the PM).

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Alanis126 · 14/12/2019 08:23

Well the job of the leader will be to win the election. It seems to do so you have to appeal to Tory northerners in ex-mining bubbles who don't like foreigners, anyone with an education and have just voted a serial liar from Eton with a record of picking on minorities. Jess Phillips has just spent 3 years undermining her leader and is on record saying she didn't want him because he "is a white man from Luuunduhn" in a deliberately exaggerated West Midlands accent. After Thursday I don't think it is possible with the English electorate being as averse as they are to anything open or progressive dor anyone other than a right winger pandering to the Tory press to win again. I hope Scotland gets its independence and Northern Ireland eventually chooses reunification because England is just too conservative and full of closed-off people for any proper country to want to be part of. I'd also say that there is still plenty of latent anti-Irish racism in English Tory voters and the press so if Long-Bailey were elected they'd probably say she must have been something to do with it, & people on doorsteps in the North would say "Ahhm nut votin furr urr she supported t'IRA" but you can't say anything back bevause their GF was a miner.

Wonderbag · 14/12/2019 08:28

I too wish Andy Burnham had got it at the time.

Antigonads · 14/12/2019 08:34

Gosh @Alanis126

Bitter much?

SingingLily · 14/12/2019 08:35

I am not trying to silence you, OP, far from it. I am trying to help you understand.

Your opening post said "if I try to take myself out of my remain bubble for a minute and think about those northern leave voting 'wall' constituencies / Workington man etc etc,". That indicated to me that you genuinely wanted to understand why Labour lost its traditional heartlands. As a Northerner who was born and has lived for a long time in those heartlands, including some of the poorest and most deprived, I thought you might welcome some perspective based on my life experience. That was why I posted.

In that spirit, I will offer you one piece of entirely non-judgemental advice, and then leave you to it.

The first step to understanding other people is to stop insulting them. Gammon is an insult. It is a very specific insult. The people to whom it is applied know only too well that they are being insulted and that's when they stop bothering to communicate with those who insult them.

You may not have meant it as an insult. You may have meant it as a sort of verbal shorthand to describe a particular type of voter. However, now that it has been explained so clearly to you - and you will note I was, in fact, the third poster to point this out to you - then you can either take this on board and stop using it, or you can carry on, in which case you will never understand why the Labour heartlands were lost and why they will remain lost.

Your choice, OP.

And now I will leave you to it.

youknowitmakessensedunnit · 14/12/2019 09:30

Well said. People also despise the identity politics that go hand in hand with people using the pejorative "gammon", usually with excuse that the word is associated with "punching up" and so is therefore somehow acceptable.

The idea that these (broadly) poor Northern towns have more opportunity and privilege because they can be identified as mainly "white" is laughable, and yet one that left wing agitators like Owen Jones et al trot out on a regular basis.

Alanis126 · 14/12/2019 10:32

I am bitter, disgusted and despairing. Im sick of all this pandering to northerners going on about Liberal Media bubbles. All we've had are vox pops from Stoke and Workington man. Does a northern accent excuse ignorance or xenophobia or thinking that everyone who doesn't wear 100 poppies is a terrorist? Maybe you want more unemployment, food banks and welfare cuts because that is what is coming.

thecatfromjapan · 14/12/2019 11:12

Whoever it is, they need to be able to reign in Momentum - if only because Momentum produce and echo-chamber effect in Labour.

And we need to stop talking about 'gammon'.

That is totally part of the problem. It's toxic.

Gone2far · 14/12/2019 12:47

anyone who can defend the used of 'gammon' is, as other posters have said, a perfect example of why Labour lost.
I think Stephen Kinnock would be a great leader, but doesn't stand a chance in hell.
Jess Phillips has patently been positioning herself for some time to be leader. Ironically on her support for women's rights, given that she has never shown any support for GC women.

OxfordCat · 14/12/2019 22:37

I am trying to help you understand patronising much

The idea that these (broadly) poor Northern towns have more opportunity and privilege because they can be identified as mainly "white" is laughable

Um, POC are usually part of underprivileged communities AND experience daily structural and systemised racism. It's not a race to the bottom. The racist rhetoric that's come from the Tories, the Home Office hostile environment, the Windrush scandal, and Johnson's own racist remarks... but oh no, the white men are the ones who suffer the most?

All we've had are vox pops from Stoke and Workington man. Does a northern accent excuse ignorance or xenophobia or thinking that everyone who doesn't wear 100 poppies is a terrorist?

Agree. Yes sadly, I believe a lot of people do seem to think this.

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MissGiddyPants · 14/12/2019 23:10

How many fucking times.

It’s rein. Like rein back on a horse.

Not reign. Like the Queen.

Sigh.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2019 01:13

Yeah.

Soz.

Imma going with 'non-standard' excuse.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2019 01:14

Cuz I has been to many linguistics conferences, innit.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2019 01:35

Sorry - was attempting to be funny.

Anyway, points in favour of Lisa Nandy:

She already has a grasp on why Labour isn't connecting outside big cities.

It seems like an absurdly small point but she is already talking about Labour's manifesto concentrating on railways rather than buses.

That sounds daft - but when the whole 'nationalise railways' thing was still at the kite-flying stage, some LSE boffin wrote a paper about how buses we're far more of an issue for most people in the UK than trains, and how this affected infrastructure, work, and so on in places outside large cities.

Since then, Mumsnet has had many discussions about this, drawing on various MNers actual experience of relying on poor bus provision.

I honestly think it matters that she is aware of this bus issue.

It points to the fact that she is connected to the concerns of her constituents, realises it's importance, and realises that those concerns were absent in Labour's vision.

It's a small point but it does chime with what people say about her: she's an MP who takes her responsibility to represent her constituents very seriously.

This is what was behind her taking a Leave position after the Referendum.
It's not some mad 'Lexit' position - it was from a sense of responsibility.

That position doesn't matter at all now - and will certainly translate into a determination to fight for the best outcome for ordinary people in upcoming negotiations (however hopeless that might be, given the Conservative majority).

She also has a safer seat than the 'appointed successor', Rebecca Long-Bailey. And she is popular with constituents.

That matters because some kind of ability to connect with the electorate - the real electorate, not just members - is pretty important.

Polling suggests that Rebecca Long-Bailey isn't that popular (at the moment) with people. She comes across as someone who tells people what to do. Apparently. Comparisons with Jo Swinson have been raised - and not in a good way.

OxfordCat · 15/12/2019 10:24

Yeah agree with all that. Nandy always comes across as someone with integrity and who is popular with her constituents. I think she would cut through to those voters, but it's just the sexism issue being a barrier. I agree on buses- electric of course- and I'm appalled at how the Tories have just kicked the climate crisis can down the road. 2050 is too late to cut carbon emissions.

I don't think a Corbynist successor is the way to go and this would be political suicide. There's going to be a huge fight against them trying to install Long Bailey, who is absolutely awful on all levels.

In general I'm still appalled at how the voters in disadvantaged northern 'wall' have voted in a dishonest racist, but I understand that the reasons Labour lost it are on them. Looking at the data, Labour clearly lost the election rather than the Tories winning. The Tories overall votes barely increased but the Labour votes significantly dropped, proving that had they had a better leader they could have won a majority.

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thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2019 10:54

I suspect the narrative of former Labour voters going Tory isn't correct.

Suspect many just didn't vote/put their vote elsewhere.

And more of that red wall stayed put than is given credit for.

Not sure how much of a difference that makes but ... given how much of this election was fought under clouds of denial & delusion, and how much of that is still in place , I'm being cautious about 'immediate narratives'.

My God, it was a terrible Campaign from Labour. Strategy and messaging were dire to a surreal level.

It's as though 'we' decided that competence was politically suspect.

So I want a Leader who actually thinks competence is a good thing.

thecatfromjapan · 15/12/2019 11:11

I also think that the next Leader needs to go into dialogue with Momentum - and the 'tempering' needs to come from there.

Like it or not, Labour is now very reliant on Momentum.

However much some Momentum members alienate potential members and voters, they actually now constitute a great deal of the membership and (ironically) their activists were responsible for many holds and the one gain.

And it's where a lot of the future membership/voters are placed.

It is an irony because ... well, you know.

So I think the next Leader has quite a tricky path to pick out.

Does Nandy have the trust of enough of those members?

Many people tell me she has the political intelligence to pick out that path - but do you know anything about the 'vision' she has?

I'd like to know more about that before voting.

4cats2kids · 15/12/2019 11:19

If I join now, can I vote for a leader?

billysboy · 15/12/2019 11:23

Diane Abbot for the next leader !

From what I have seen on the tellybox , none of the current labour leadership seem to accept why they lost it seems it everyones fault but theirs

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