Is Ed Miliband responsible for the state we are in?

[IdaBWells]

By running against his brother for party leader, changing the rules to vote for Labour leadership (enabling Corbyn's rise) and refusing to support Cameron in Obama's desire to move into Syria I read an article that blamed Brexit and Trump on Ed. Is this reasonable to make one person responsible for so much?

I knew a number of refugees in London from the Iran-Iraq war too.

I mean I knew they nerged ages ago but then I am obviously making mistakes with their names. It will always be a combo of Liberal, Social, Democrat.

What happened to the independents from a few months back? Did they all slink into the night?

As you've mentioned the Bushes...

The refugee crisis was set in motion a long time ago by George W Bush and his advisors.

Dubya was going to invade Iraq no matter what. I don't believe Blair could have stopped him.

So the (entirely predictable) destabilisation of the Middle East would have happened anyway.

I'll never forgive Blair for making us complicit in it. But I don't think he either caused it or could stop it.

So be devil's advocate, didn't Cameron feel he had no choice? Had many voters chosen the Tories because they we promising a referendum? Seeing the numbers turning out for a pure Brexit party, there seems to be a significant minority for whom leaving was their number one issue. I guess Cameron was confident that it was a minority opinion but then there was not a significant campaign/argument on the remain side. I wasn't in the UK but was shocked to find that my two best friends and brother all voted to leave. The timing probably could not have been worse with the large numbers of refugees needing to find safety right at that time. Corbyn just seemed to go AWOL during the whole thing.

I agree Perking but what about Bush senior? Hadn't his own foray already caused destabilization? Didn't Dubya want to "finish what was started"? What were the results of the first war and coming right after the Iran-Iraq war? Did the Iraqis have any young men left?

Of course Cameron had a choice.

He didn't have to call a referendum, he just wanted to for his own internal party politicking.

But even if calling a referendum was correct for some reason (eg ethical reasons), what he actually called was a cock-up.

If he'd genuinely meant to enable the country to make an informed choice about the future, he would have held a decently planned referendum.

One way to do it would have been to put the work in beforehand to show what each of the options would mean (Remain, Leave w Customs Union, Leave w/o Customs Union, Leave w/o Customs Union w border in Irish Sea, etc). Then have a referendum with Single Transferrable Vote. That way people would have been able to vote for their preferred option and also express their fallback preference.

Just which part of a flat, nonspecific Leave vs Remain referendum did Ed Milliband make David Cameron do?

In fact, people have said that Blair was led into the Iraq war because of his hubris following the successful British intervention in Sierra Leone.

Cameron did the same. Although he had no influence either way, "he won" (in his own mind) the Scottish independence referendum.

So he casually called another referendum, thinking "he would win".

Bye Dave. Pity you broke the country on your way out.

I blame party politics and the voting system more than individuals.

Cameron did have a choice. But he, like many politicians, couldn’t see beyond the end of his nose and felt that his party issues were more important.

Ed was there during the coalition years, it seems odd to think he was there that long..
But he really expected he would win..
The bacon sandwich incident was so awful.

No one looks good eating a bacon sandwich.

And the cartoons of him knifing his brother in the back, added to the view about trusting him, do you remember the Wallace and Grommet bit as well.

Yes- it’s all his fault! His brother would have done a much better job.

Being abroad I just could never grasp the significance of the bacon sarnie picture. It must've encapsulated a political moment in some way. Although I appreciate that politicians are acutely aware of their public image and the importance of creating the right optics.

I detest American politicians who always point into the crowd when everyone is cheering. I would always see Bill Clinton do that, smile and point into the crowd as if he knew people in EVERY crowd but really he was trying to make sure his photos were of him pointing in this dynamic pose, rather than just stand there looking passive.