Unwritten social codes in England

[user1494871340]

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong sub-forum, but I wasn't sure where to put it. I've been spending a lot of time in the UK for work recently (I'm from India) and I've become quite fascinated with pop social history and anthropology on English society.

I just read 'Watching the English' by Katie Fox and I was amused by the presence of strict class segregations in common vocabulary (sofa vs. couch, napkin vs. serviette etc). An American colleague and I recently discussed how bewildering the English class system is to us since it based on social rather than economic capital and often what would be considered glamorous in other cultures is looked down upon as gauche here.

I've generally found English people to be quite inscrutable, self-deprecating and reticent (compared to the Arabs and Americans whom I lived amongst earlier). So I was wondering if you could tell me what some other unwritten social codes in the UK are? If you've ever lived overseas, what were the important cultural differences you spotted? What are the unsaid rules/ customs/ morals that you think are specific to England? Thanks and sorry for such a frivolous thread!

I don't think the British are passive aggressive at all. Unlike some people.

Only the MC worry about whether they are MC or not (or so i've read!).

People say they arn't afected by class but then obsess over markers such as milk or hot water first when pouring tea, the pronunciation of scone (like 'gone' or like 'stone'), whether Jaffacakes are a biscuit or a cake. A lot of it is a load of old horse shit

I think that for the last 10 years, at least, it has been 'cool' to be thick and 'uncool' to be intelligent. I like knowledge - random facts about orcas, podenco dogs, Neptune, Joan Miro (i just faked one for my son's room lolz!), Catalan Christmas traditions... I don't shout about them but i'm great at writing quizzes!

Sorry, got off track. But great thread!

MorrisZap

Interesting discussion.

I think class is so ingrained that being considered anything other than the class you were born into is almost impossible.

I'm thoroughly WC however my earnings, values and some of the things I do could land me in the middle classes, but to the middle classes I will always be WC. Same if I became the richest person in the word tomorrow and had a battered car full of dog fur and muddy wellies would still never be accepted as UC.

Thankfully I dont give a damn what class I am or what other people perceive me to be.

Morris

The British are downright notorious for never coming out and saying what they mean. They will imply things, and be passive aggressive - fine if you're able to pick up on this, not so good if you're no good at reading between the lines.

We are polite. It is not polite to criticise or carp or complain. So we hint, heavily.
The French can come straight out and say what they mean but we think that they are unbelievable rude. (Cringes at criticising others, but they are foreign so it's OK )

Yes, second that with the public schools. The Public Schools Act schools are called 'public schools', and there are only nine of them. The rest are private schools.

Being autistic I don't understand a lot of the British social etiquette anyway. I miss hints and I'm very direct. I'm not rude though, in fact I'm told I'm very polite!

Ha, Morris. I'm not criticising, merely observing. I silently seethe and passive aggressive with the best of them, which is probably why I loved living there so much.

We're much the same here, to be fair - you'd be hard pushed to get anyone even vaguely approaching middle class to come out and say something directly (say, if someone was annoying or upsetting them). Men maybe more likely to.

One of my grandmothers was wc, the other is mc. Neither would be direct about anything as they perceived directness as confrontational. I don't think class has much to do with it.

An American colleague and I recently discussed how bewildering the English class system is to us since it based on social rather than economic capital and often what would be considered glamorous in other cultures is looked down upon as gauche here.

Yes, it is about social capital. You can't buy that. So expending money on trying to achieve 'glamour' is never going to fool anyone. It is too try-hard or gauche.

There is a very famous example of snobbery regarding trying to buy your way into a different class. Michael Hesseltine was a Conservative politician: a self-made man (i.e. MC) who had aspirations, including designs on being Prime Minister. The powers that be in the party (UC) weren't keen on him and he was famously decried with the cutting remark - "The trouble with Michael is that he had to buy all his furniture." (i.e. he didn't inherit)
Margaret Thatcher was also MC but made no pretensions to be anything else, so was acceptable.

There is a much-loved comedy sketch from the Sixties about knowing your place . (ignore the second sketch) Sorry about the quality of the sound, I couldn't find a better one. It's them, not your computer.

I think being polite is a middle class thing. Most of the actual UC people I've met have been pretty upfront and loud. As with many of the WC people I've known over the years. I think it's more about individuals whereas there are very few MC people ready to break with convention.

I have one upper mc parent and one wc. And married a middle class DH. We are probably umc now. I find it all fascinating, and so many of the stereotypes are true. I don't have natural social skills so I analyse class situations a lot.

I cant stand my in-laws' mc matching furniture and curtains. My wc dad could never afford that, and my umc mum inherited lots of furniture. My DH recently convinced me to buy a bed from a department store-very mc.

Regarding anti intellectualism, it is very much seen as boasting in some circles to talk about being academic (I'm choosing my words very carefully from years of practice). I live in a mc/wc area and would avoid mentioning that I studied at Oxford except to very close friends. However when mixing with the upper mc I might mention it to show that I fit in.

The things I talk about are very much dependent on the class of the people I talk to. But always avoid money or politics.

We are polite. It is not polite to criticise or carp or complain. So we hint, heavily.

Sorry, I need to qualify that remark. We do not get angry or cross on our own behalf. We do get angry on behalf of others - see numerous examples of social justice from abolitionism to Oxfam to Live Aid.

I never worry about class identifyers in regard of what I do.

It's fun observing though.

@TheDowagerCuntess I agree with your point. And the same thing applies when they want specific presents for Christmas/birthdays by giving hints and leaving clues around the house. Dh thought that all women did this. I had to tell him off. If i want something specifically, I will not hint at it and leave clues around the house like MIL but state it. If I look at something and said it looks nice, it does not mean I want it in my house.

And then when they don't get the present they are passive aggressive.

Oh! And MIL would never have profiteroles for a dinner party because it's very common.

Regarding anti intellectualism, it is very much seen as boasting in some circles to talk about being academic.

I think that it depends how you do it. We don't like flashy but we do like sincere.
We like David Attenborough, Mary Beard and Stephen Hawking who are clever and knowledgeable, without flaunting it. It is their state of 'being'. As opposed to people like Stephen Fry or Boris Johnson, who have to keep talking about themselves it all the time.

Regarding anti intellectualism, it is very much seen as boasting in some circles to talk about being academic
So true too.
It is very clear that in my dcs secondary, aiming for Oxford is not well seen. This is 'boasting' and my very able dc has struggles a lot because that sort of attitude.
Ive seen it too in parents putting down big unis (Oxford or durham) because 'they are too academic'. These are from Mc but very well educated people (think GPs etc...). Or going on at how xx went to Durham but you know she isnt that clever

It not an issue about talking about yourself as such. It a full rejection of 'academia' that I have seen.

Independent schools are called private by mc people and public by uc people

No. All independent schools are called 'private schools' by WC, Lower MC and some Middle MC.

A small number of independent schools (mostly the oldest ones) are called 'public schools'. UC and some middle MC tend to use the terms 'independent' or 'public' schools depending on which applies.

I'm a little surprised that appearing too intellectual is taboo- why is that?

The answer lies in the previous comment:

Oh, and the absolute basic rule is to avoid being pretentious. So, no showing off

Basically, it's fine to be intellectual or clever or talented, but don't show off about it - or indeed do anything that could be interpreted as showing off, which includes simply being frank about your abilities.

So if I'm fluent in French and someone asks me about it (in a social setting rather than a job interview), I'd reply along the lines of "well, I can get by enough to order myself a Chablis", rather than "yes, I can pass for a native Parisienne"!

"An American colleague and I recently discussed how bewildering the English class system is to us since it based on social rather than economic capital and often what would be considered glamorous in other cultures is looked down upon as gauche here."

This is a confidence trick that the aristocracy have played on the rest of us! If you visit a stately home and take a look at the stuff they bought for themselves at the height of their wealth and power; it is vulgar and blingy.
In fact when stately homes get renovated to the original state its common for middle class visitors to complain about the sudden vulgarity.

It was only when the middle class started to emerge as a power that the aristo's suddenly decided that everything had to be elegantly faded and passed down through a dozen generations. They were basically claiming that other classes were doing money wrong.

And this has continued through the years and down the ranks so that you now find middle class people complaining that the objects working class people find aspirational and tacky and chavy.

Its fucking ridiculous. You can't get spending money wrong. You cant be wealthy in the wrong way. Its testament to our ridiculous class deference that we have bought into this.

I still find Jilly Cooper's 'Class' to be the funniest and most deadly accurate description, although there are some shocking casual references to sexist, homophobic and racist behaviours that were normal then but that are now taboo. In some ways the world has moved on since the 1970's, but in others it's not changed at all.

Oh and OP, yes you had started this thread in the wrong bit of the forum, but personally I need some light relief from election ranting so thanks for brightening up the politics zone!

I immediately thought of these two memes that were doing the rounds:

Driving to and from Exeter today, I considered what clearly marked my husband as UMC/landed gentry.
It was
The Christening gown handed down and used by all children since about 1700.
The bridal tiara worn by all brides since time began and which will be kept in perpetuity for futures family brides.
The furniture handed down through the generations.
The soup tureen, fish kettle and similar.

Then the food -
Porridge (watery and salty)
Boiled eggs
Kedgeree
Game - especially rabbit
Trout and other freshwater fish.
Sausage rolls
Rice pudding
Single malt whiskey

Not hummus, crudités, sushi, wraps, smoothies or paella (unless in Spain), Pimms.