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Politics

Best article EVER on Trump win

106 replies

RhodaBull · 11/11/2016 13:57

Just read this and it really hits the nail on the head. And I am "blue" fwiw...

www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

OP posts:
user1475253854 · 12/11/2016 10:24

Agree about the press thing Roussette. Someone once asked Caitlin Moran why she wrote in the times when what she wrote about was often more typically 'guardian'. I can't remember her exact words but something like - I need to write for people who don't get or care about feminism/women's issues and try and change their view/open their minds. Sometimes she will get a retired colonel or whatever who writes to her saying you've actually made me change my mind on abortion etc. And obviously the times pay her well.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 10:27

didn't vote to leave but was horrified at the insults hurled at those who did.

The violent protests we are seeing in USA, and the vile insults levelled at Leavers in the UK, is the same reaction that occurs when a person is removed from a cult, and other types of mind control. They spit & claw wanting to return to those who put them in bondage, because they hv been inculcated to believe that everyone else out there wants to do them harm. They don't realise that harm has already been done to them.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 10:31

Maajid Nawaz coined the phrase Regressive Left which is spot on. THAT is what we are dealing with.

"The regressive left (also sometimes referred to as regressive liberals) is a political epithet used to negatively characterize a section of left-wing politics which is accused of paradoxically holding reactionary views due to its tolerance of illiberal principles and ideologies (such as extremist Islamism) for the sake of multiculturalism and cultural relativism."

mmack · 12/11/2016 10:55

If America had voted for Clinton as president she wouldn't have been able to get anything done with a Republican congress and senate. I would be 100% a Hillary supporter but from a practical point of view Trump as president with Paul Ryan as speaker of the house is a combination that could actually get things done. Moderate American voters who didn't want to vote for Hillary could vote for Trump with the confidence of knowing that they have a system of government that has balance.
People over here are also forgetting about the importance of the Supreme Court appointments. At the moment there are 2 justices appointed by Bill Clinton, 2 by Obama, 1 appointed by Reagan, 3 by the Bushes and a vacancy. I think that American would instinctively be against another Clinton getting to appoint justices.

Spinflight · 12/11/2016 11:17

Other than the libertarian / authoritarian divide, the problem being even those rioting and drowning in their liberal tears wouldn't admit to being authoritarian, I think the most important point that Milo raised was virtue signalling.

As he said all those miserable journalists are merely writing pieces which confirm their place in the pantheon of whatever pseudo gobbledeshite happens to pass for their idealised version of the social contract.

Anyone who disagrees is racist, homophobic, sexist, third cousin of satan, mad or uncaring.

Trump has a reputation for being tighter than scrooge but by acting like a bit of an asshole he saved himself a lot of money. Indeed I think his business lost more money after his Muslim ban comments than he spent during the election. He effectively used her own money against her, used her control of the press against her. Probably saved himself $1.7 billion or so.

Still interesting to see tolerant liberals burning cars and beating people up whilst they march en masse against democracy.

mmack · 12/11/2016 11:38

I think that Hillary showed terrible judgement in the last few days of her campaign. Trump was portraying her as a big-moneyed elitist. She was the first female candidate and running against 'grab them by the pussy' Trump. Why on earth did she think it would be a good idea to get up on stage with Jay-Z? She undermined her own campaign and her team were idiots to not see it.

howabout · 12/11/2016 11:45

tbf mmack when she had Bill and Weiner in her camp I can't see adding Jay-Z making much difference - and Beyonce was and is massively successful with or without him. Never heard her singing "Buy my records cos I'm a woman who got my experience from 20 years at the back of my misogynist pig of a DH".

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 11:54

those rioting and drowning in their liberal tears wouldn't admit to being authoritarian

This is very true. They are not rioting because the wrong candidate got the job, but because their own authoritarian mindset prevents them from analysing or believing there are major errors in their pretend liberalism, which is in fact totalitarianism.

MangoMoon · 12/11/2016 12:06

Spinflight, great link!

Milo totally nails the whole thing re the oppressive left.

MangoMoon · 12/11/2016 12:13

This thread is all the stuff I've been thinking for a long while now, but couldn't properly articulate.
I can totally see why these things are/have been happening & it seems obvious to me.

I tried to explain how/why people voted as they did (on mn etc) after the last GE & also after Brexit but was met with the usual leftie wall of outrage and insults so gave up pretty quickly - still on the EU threads it continues unabated, sadly.

At some point, (I live in optimistic hope!), those people will take their fingers out of their ears, take the blinkers off and see the wider world - not just their narrow, simplistic view.

mmack · 12/11/2016 12:18

It is all part of the same thing though. Jay-Z referring to women as bitches is offensive to a lot of people. But somehow he is deemed cool by a liberal media and association with him is supposed to enhance Hillary as a candidate. Plus Beyonce was involved in all that stupid controversy after the CMAs so it would just have been sensible for Hillary steer well clear. I really think that if she had spent the last few days visiting veterans, homeless shelters, universities etc. she might have won a few more of the swing states.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 12:19

Pluto That vid of DT is 28 yrs old. What took him so long?

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 12:33

And that Beyonce/Jay-Z stunt must hv cost the Democrats a $1 million fee. Not a freebie.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 12:35

Some prescient remarks by Trump months before he became president.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDZR-t0Vr7E

M0stlyHet · 12/11/2016 13:03

Don't kid yourselves about the oppressive right, either, though. I'll certainly agree that a massive failure to step outside the urban middle class comfortable lifestyle and listen to the genuine concerns of people gifted elections - that and the fact that over Brexit, the Tory remainers had shot themselves in the foot - they'd run the NHS and public services into the ground while quite happily letting immigration take the blame for the resulting failures which in fact were due to their inadequate funding - so come the vote, they couldn't turn round and say "you know those immigrants you think are responsible for long waiting lists and over-full classrooms? Guess what. Not their fault, ours." So they let Farage's immigrant bashing go unchallenged and were unable to come up with a positive case for the EU in its place. So yes, massive failures of both the centre left and centre right.

But don't kid yourselves that because Trump's voter base is, for the most part, driven by desperation rather than racism, sexism, etc (some are - a not insubstantial part, btw), that Trump isn't deeply racist, sexist, and (frankly) horrendously elitist himself. Beware going down the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" route, because you find yourself in some pretty crap company that way - and Milo Yiannopoulos is top of the crap list.

You have to remember that while virtue signalling (espousing political positions simply to make yourself look good on Tumblr without actually doing anything constructive, then screaming bigot at anyone who doesn't agree with you) is, if not actually a bad thing, at least a fairly pointless and vacuous thing, it should be remembered that virtue itself is not a bad thing. Getting cross about, say, Louis Smith getting a ban for Islamophobic remarks should not tip over into tolerating having women's hijabs snatched from their heads in the street, or people having the N word or P word screamed at them. Society has to tolerate reasonable, reasoned debate, or even expression of opinion in ways which falls short of bullying and threatening individuals, but it also has to crack down on actual abusive behaviour. The likes of Yiannopoulis make no distinction between someone arguing in debate that some forms of Islam are socially regressive and someone screaming the P word at a stranger in the street, or trying to argue for caps on immigration versus going up to a stranger on the street and saying "go home now". To the alt right both forms of speech should be protected by free speech legislation. I want an old fashioned, moderate compromise of protecting the right of people to express political opinion while banning the right to intimidate and bully others in the process - the good old "positive and negative liberties" distinction of JS Mill (aka your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose).

ItsJustaUsername · 12/11/2016 13:10

Excellent article OP and lots of interesting links

I tried to explain how/why people voted as they did (on mn etc) after the last GE & also after Brexit but was met with the usual leftie wall of outrage and insults so gave up pretty quickly

Yes and this is what they have been counting on for far too long. I saw it on the EU threads and the Cologne threads. Well their game is up, let freedom of speech prevail.

My boss is American and a liberal, he told me this morning he was meeting friends this afternoon for coffee to 'put the world to rights'. He hasn't lived in America for almost 2 decades but he'll sit there in a swanky coffee shop with his skinny latte proclaiming all trump voters as ignorant racists completely unaware of his own ignorance and unable to even begin to comprehend WHY people voted as they did.

mmack · 12/11/2016 13:44

The Trump victory and Brexit are totally different in one way. People who voted for Brexit as a protest vote and didn't really mean it then ended up in a situation where there was no going back and Brexit has to go ahead no matter what. People who voted for Trump as a protest vote can be confident that congress won't ever let him build a wall with Mexico or start mass deportations. History may well judge Brexit as a much bigger disaster.

M0stlyHet · 12/11/2016 13:56

Actually I'd argue for a crucial difference the other way - however viley racist some of Farage's campaign was, people went into the referendum knowing UKIP only had one MP and Farage wouldn't be in charge of putting Brexit into effect.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 14:04

*People who voted for Brexit as a protest vote and didn't really mean it"

You are wrong, mmack. There might be a tiny number who did this, but I assure you Brexiters meant business and they knew there was no going back. Many manned tables in their high streets, went canvassing, leaflet drops, etc. Rather condescending of you, I think. It's always best to be in charge of your own life (country).

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 14:07

M0stlyHet Disagree. People saw that Farage had left a lucrative career in the City, and went on to found UKIP. It took him 20 years of his life to get to Brexit. He did say on TV that in retrospective he wished he had stayed on in the City for a bit longer, to make "his million" and then left.

InfiniteSheldon · 12/11/2016 14:17

Can you substantiate that claim mmack I've met several Remain voters who'd vote differently know they know Project Fear was rubbish. I've not yet met a single Leave voter who 'didnt really mean it'. I've spent twenty years forming my opinion of the EU as has my dh and all my Leave voting friends and family none of us made a protest vote.

M0stlyHet · 12/11/2016 14:19

I think maybe you misunderstand me. I'm not questioning whether Farage means what he says. What I'm suggesting is that a lot of Brexit voters believed that he meant what he said, and was every bit as racist as his own pronouncements made him out to be, but voted "Leave" anyway in the knowledge that it would be the current Tory government implementing Brexit, not Nigel Farage.

A Trump voter (pace the comments about the ability of the Senate and Congress to block things) could not believe anything other than that if their side won, Trump would actually be in the Whitehouse making the decisions. There's no way a Trump voter could have gone into the polling booth thinking "ID cards for Muslims, build a wall, well it's not like he'll actually have the power to do those things." They might have gone into the voting booth thinking "well, I hate those things, but at least I won't have Clinton imposing a no-fly zone over Syria and starting a nuclear war with Russia in the Middle East," or "Well, frankly, my job's only just hanging on here, it's vote Trump or see the continuing decline of the rust belt and find myself out on the street."

The crucial difference - post election, Trump is running things, post Brexit, Farage was not going to be running things (unless parliament totally cocks up its handling of Brexit and hands Farage a blank cheque at the next election - and trust me, this is my number one worry about a fragmented left/left who won't listen, coupled with an ineffectual Tory party).

M0stlyHet · 12/11/2016 14:22

Incidentally I think the same thing about traditional Democrat voters who abstained/voted minority candidate/wrote in... Could they not see that it was a two horse race, and that an abstention was tantamount to a vote for Trump? If they went into the polling booth in the knowledge that Trump was going to introduce ID cards and build a wall if he got in, and they wasted their vote on a candidate who could not possibly win, they might as well have voted for Trump.

quencher · 12/11/2016 14:25

Op, interesting article. Interesting that a lot of wealthy people voted for trump more than they did Hillary. Majorly of trump voters earned over $50. That's not your average village rural earning.

I don't think Hillary would have done much to rally more white voters to vote for her. The damage was done with the FBI investigation news that came right before the investigation.

The black singers she had was the last push she had to try and gain more black voters. In the early voting stages most of them won't turning up. Black people as a group would have made a difference to her campaign. They just didn't believe her enough to turn up.
My conclusion, is that most black people just felt doomed on both sides.
This article which mirrors yours from the black peoples perspective, those who voted trump just gave me chills. Chills for the fact that I might have got Hillary all wrong and probably I should focus less on why can't people vote for a female president. Don't get me wrong I would not support trump in any way shape or form. Not even condone him. I do think my perception of Hilary has changed though.
www.cnbc.com/2016/11/11/why-hillary-clinton-couldnt-rally-the-black-vote-commentary.html

To the person who wrote about Beyoncé being behind her husband knows nothing. 20 years? She has been in the industry for almost 20 years. She wouldn't have married to her husband at 14 or dating him.

Southallgirl · 12/11/2016 14:45

I'm suggesting is that a lot of Brexit voters believed that he meant what he said, and was every bit as racist as his own pronouncements made him out to be

My parents are foreign, and I'm always curious why Farage is called a racist. I just do not see it.