whats the diffence between Socialism and Marxism?

[oxoladysguilty]

Ed Balls and the new Labour leader often get accusations from opponents of being socialist but I never hear the word 'Marxist'.

Claig, I wonder if your interpretation of "Utopia" is intrinsically linked to religion, where others may link it to religious-free atheism.

Socrates vied for a religious-free utopia where humankind accepted all of humankind regardless.

I'm referring purely to the book utopia.

In the book the criminals (I can't remember off hand what made you one in utopia, because it was a few years ago I read the book) were the ones who did a lot of the jobs like cleaning the poo away, cooking driving carts around there were many jobs set aside for and person who had committed a crime I remember the more I read the I realised you'd need an awful lot of them to do all these jobs.

By the time I'd read the book it was clear utopia wasn't actually utopia IYKWM

'the criminals (I can't remember off hand what made you one in utopia)'

Was it believing in free speech?

I haven't read that book, but it doesn't sound like a real utopia as it is intenced to be, more like a dystopia.

squidzin, I think you are probably right that I see utopia as a belief and religion as a belief and therefore the wish for utopia as a sort of faith in something that can never be realised and never be real, as an ideal to be aimed for a bit like a religion.

I didn't know that Socrates believed in a utopia. Have you got any links, it sounds interesting.

I think Plalo believed in utopias and societies ruled by Guardians and philosopher kings, but those are the inspiration for utopian scommunism.

but it doesn't sound like a real utopia as it is intenced to be

But thats just it claig I thought that this is the original utopia and subsequent referred to 'utopian' society, because it was written in 1500Whatever

Which is why I assumed all communists societies must be derived from it.

'But thats just it claig I thought that this is the original utopia and subsequent referred to 'utopian' society, because it was written in 1500'

Are you referring to the very famous book, which I have never read but should do, by Thoas More in 1516.

I take it back, that book is supposed to a very important one in the utopian idea movement. I never knew there were criminals doing those jobs in a book back in those days, it sounded more like a modern sci-fi book.

I wil lhave to google it to find out what it is about. Wasn't More religious, a Catholic etc. Is religion in it?

'I thought that this is the original utopia and subsequent referred to 'utopian' society'

I think utopia, which is a Greek word, goes right back to Plato and maybe before and Atlantis which I think has also influenced freemasonry, but am not sure about that.

I don't think there was religion in that utopia, (but not 100% sure)

I'm not well educated but I do love learning about politics/economics/philosophy so I pick things up here and there. But I'm always on the search for more information, so I can draw my own conclusions.

Its why I'm willing to ask stupid questions and make clumsy observations. If I feel I can learn from the the outcome.

Come to think of it yes, yes it makes sence, as Atlantis is called utopian. I think I just got it stuck in my brain after reading utopia that that was the original.

No, TwatThe.
Communists/Marxists are generally sceptical of "utopian" socialism because the inference is naive, willing acceptance.

Communism is aware that revolution involves force of the many towards the elite few. Therefore it is disruptive.

Trotsky believes a continual state of revolution is necessary to ensure the shared benefits of society to the many. Marx believes one revolution at some point in time will resolve the issue of class.

The book you refer to has a vague connection to communism but not wholly accurate. Good for a read though.

'I'm not well educated '

Don't do yourself down, that book is only about one of the most famous books of the entire Middle Ages.

'Its why I'm willing to ask stupid questions and make clumsy observations'

Unfortunately, you have to put up with some stupid answers on here, because I'm not a medieval scholar, the closest I have got to that is drinking a bottle of Skol.

"Accurate" meaning connected to communism! Obviously it is what it is accurately enough. Anyways I'm making dinner bye for now.

Thanks squidzin

TwatTheNinja, what they say you have to read is Plato's Republic. I haven't read it but apparently it is all in there, the entire elitist paradigm of communism, utopianism and totalitarianism.

And of course Orwell's 1984 and to a lesser extent Huxley's Brave New World for what the modern utopians are up to today, so I have been told.

claig now you've just got me singing the skol song in my head

Thanks claig I'll look out for them

'singing the skol song'

Don't remember that one, I will check it out

Marx (basically) said that society should work 'from each according to their abilities, to each according to their need' (basically like humans in Star Trek)
He also said human nature was naturally generous, kind and benevolent, but capitalism caused them to be selfish (ie put self, family, friends etc before others).
This could all be solved by a massive world-wide revolution, human nature would change.
In the countries this has been tried, human nature hasn't changed, so the only way to make the first part work is coercion.

Because we all need to be right-wing Isrealites don't we, caroldecker

More's book is interesting and contains issues that we are still dealing with today, such as the introduction of euthanasia which is part of More's utopia and is contrary to most religions' wishes.

In More's utopia all religions are accepted and tolerated as equal except for atheism, that is not allowed which differs from communism which is almost the exact opposite.

There is free healthcare etc and there are the usual communist/totalitarian/utopian things like the equivalent of ID cards that alwasy pop up in these controlled systems

"Travel on the island is only permitted with an internal passport and any people found without a passport are, on a first occasion, returned in disgrace, but after a second offence they are placed in slavery"

and the key to communism, there is no private property.

There is also slavery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)

All in all, it is a terible system because it removes freedom and the elites have decided where you can live and what you do etc. Compared to More's utopia, our imperfect system is a real utopia where at least we are to a great extent free and can set our own goals and aspirations and buy our own Skol without the metropolitan elite setting a minimum price for it.

Some of More's utopia sounds like stuff out of Mao's little red book and we all know that that is not a funny joke apart from McDonnell, a socialist and probably a utopian.

You have to work in More's utopia but they try to keep your hours down to 6 hours mandatory but you can work more if you want. But the problem, as with communism where there was equal pay, is what is the incentive to work more if you can't own anything and can get whatever you want from the "warehouse" by asking for it.

It doesn't take into account human nature and people's acquisitive, aspirational drive and the need for incentive in order to produce more.

Our system is a growth system, it is dynamic and alive. The elite's utopias and green systems are low-growth, static, lifeless, souless systems where human instincts such as greed, acquisitiveness, competition and even excess effort are seen as unnecessary and harmful to the elite's closed, controlled system.

Like many of our modern day utopians, More studied at Oxford and was "called to the Bar", and that is not the House of Commons subsidised one, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people in those days had to pay for one of those too.