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Politics
OP posts:
LynetteScavo · 27/06/2015 22:28

You think the Queen would be swayed to dissolve parliament buy a petition?

You don't think that the Queen would vote Conservative if she were to vote and is probably perfectly happy with the current government?

Really?

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:32

" I find it quite sinister - just because you don't like the result you want to overturn the outcome of free and fair elections?"

Sinister how?

For a petition like this to work, would be totally unprecedented.

And there's no way anything like this would work unless a huge majority of the general population were on-side.

And if they were, it would be the will of the majority of the people, so democratic, not sinister.

Of course it's not going to happen.

What will happen - eventually - is that the voting public will wake up to the fact that the Tories do not have their best interests at heart, and that unless you are seriously rich or the shareholder of a corporation, voting for the tories is like being a turkey voting for Christmas.

When that point will be, no one can say now. But when it happens, this government will be voted out at a general election in the usual way.

People will be angry by then. Probably many of you who defend their policies now. Because, eventually what's as a result of tory policy happening will become impossible to ignore.

People are dying because of this government's policies. Children will grow up in poverty, people are losing out on the chance of secure jobs, and being made to work for benefits or become destitute.

Communities are being destroyed on a large scale, families split up. Emergency services and health care are being attacked, as are our schools, which are being sold off to the private sector by stealth. Nothing is being done to stop the rise of house prices, provide affordable housing or create new jobs.

The most vulnerable in our society are being punished for the crimes of the wealthy. Food bank use and hate crimes directed at disabled people are on the rise. The government are governing according to ideology, but they don't talk about it. They are not interested in evidence.

Justice is being eroded, they also want to take away our human rights and agree to secretive international trade agreements that will restrict our freedom of expression, due process, innovation, the future of the Internet’s global infrastructure, and the right of sovereign nations to develop policies and laws that best meet their domestic priorities, putting at risk some of the most fundamental rights that enable access to knowledge for the world’s citizens. (That last sentence is a quote from the link)

The safety net has huge holes in it now and thousands will fall through them. The government is handing over power and the nation's wealth to coorporations, through privatisation. We are sleepwalking into some kind of modern feudalism where corporations have huge powers to exploit us for profit, when we should instead be putting our heads together to tackle climate change.

Soon enough this will start to have an effect on enough people that the population realise that all the talk about benefit scroungers and austerity was a con. (The PM's background is P.R., FFS, doesn't that ring any alarm bells?!)

I just hope not many people have died or had their life chances wrecked by then, and we still have time to do something about climate change before it is too late, but I am not too hopeful.

So, are petitions like this unrealistic? If course!

But I sign it in the extremely slim hope that, should some event happen that reveals them for who they are, without doubt, and radically changes public opinion, we might have a head start in demanding their resignation!

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:36

Or in short. No one seriously thinks that this will work.

But - for some of us - it is a nice to think it could be possible and gives a little glimmer of hope, for a milisecond or two.

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:38

And it's nice to see the numbers build too and know there are like-minded people out there.

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:43

"You think the Queen would be swayed to dissolve parliament buy a petition?"

If - if - we were at the point where enough of the population signed this to make it viable, the country would have to be seriously pissed off with the government! This petition would be one of many ways th epeople made our voice heard.

Lobbying MPs for a vote of no confidence would likely be a more effective route, but if there was a petition with millions of signatures it would be a great demonstration of the people's will.

(Again, not saying this will happen! Just answering this point).

Squidzin · 27/06/2015 23:00

HIGH
FIVE

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2015 23:11

I once complained about a local campaign from the liberal democrats. They told me I was part of an orchestrated Tory campaign.

I was a bit pissed off as I would have voted Lib Dem that particular election, had they not decided to be muppets and failed to admit there was a problem with their OWN election strategy.

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 23:13

But - for some of us - it is a nice to think it could be possible and gives a little glimmer of hope, for a milisecond or two.

Next time, you could try actually voting in the general election.

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 23:40

"Next time, you could try actually voting in the general election."

Of course I'm going to vote in the next GE. I'll be out campaigning to get these fuckers out too.

Sorry your point is?

Isitmebut · 27/06/2015 23:43

In May either Labour of the Conservatives were going to form the next administration.

People looked back at Labour's last 13-years, with £trillions to spend and a huge parliamentary majority to do EXACTLY what they wanted to do - and made a complete dogs dinner of it, BEFORE the financial crash.

The Conservatives inherited the dogs dinner structured economy and finances, which bore no resemblance to what they handed to Labour - so looking at Labour's record and their 2015 manifesto, voters gave them another 5-years.

Clearly the UK economy is recovering from the worst recession in over 80-years far better than any other economy in Europe that would have been beyond Labour's imagination as 2-years after the crash was just putting up taxes and hoped it would blow over - so would had to have made deeper cuts that the Conservatives by now, that they TOLD us they would do - usually BEFORE General Elections, (disingenuously) not DURING.

March 2010; ”Alistair Darling: we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

October 2013; “Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, promises new welfare chief”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-rachel-reeves-welfare

“Rachel Reeves vows to cut welfare bill and force long-term jobless to take up work offers or lose state support”

August 2013; “Labour to substantially cut benefits bill if it wins power in 2015”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/21/labour-to-cut-benefits-bill-2015

”Labour will cut the benefits bill "quite substantially" and more effectively than the Tories if it wins power in 2015, the shadow work and pensions secretary said on Tuesday”

”Liam Byrne, a Labour frontbencher, said the coalition's welfare reforms were failing to cut costs enough, and called for cross-party talks to "save" some of the government's key schemes.”

STIDW · 28/06/2015 04:06

Did Labour really make a made a complete dogs dinner of it before the financial crash, or is that just propaganda to justify the Conservative Government reducing the state?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/there-no-economic-reason-osborne-s-surplus-plan-it-s-time-labour-stopped-playing

Claims that Labour were overspending because they were running a structural deficit before the recession started were made, but budget deficits and government borrowings has occurred in nearly every year since records began.

After ten years of growth in 2007 Labour had a structural deficit of virtually zero at - 0.4% and also budget deficit of - 0.4% - OBR page 104.

budgetresponsibility.org.uk/wordpress/docs/junebudget_annexc.pdf

The last time Conservatives were in office had 18 structural deficits in 18 years and before all three recessions during 1979 - 1997. IMF

www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=1980&ey=2012&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&pr1.x=92&pr1.y=13&c=156%2C158%2C132%2C112%2C134%2C111%2C136&s=GGSB_NPGDP&grp=0&a

According to the IMF the UK deficit increased because of a large fall in income and output caused by the global banking crisis.

touchstoneblog.org.uk/2011/10/19040/

wigglylines · 28/06/2015 08:03

"is that just propaganda to justify the Conservative Government reducing the state?"

Of course it is.

May I remind everyone that Cameron's background is PR? He knows how to weave a story to manipulate / influence opinion. That's what PR is.

One of Labour's worst mistakes was to be so weak in opposition and to leave this myth largely unchallenged, so now so many people believe it to be true. "The mess that labour got us into" story was a huge factor in the tories getting in IMO.

wigglylines · 28/06/2015 08:11

Also, I think it's dishonest that the Tories won't put their cards on the table and admit that they are dismantling our country for ideological reasons.

To blame it all on Labour / benefit scroungers is manipulative in the extreme. They are using the global financial crisis of several years back now, as an excuse to implement policies they want to anyway, not to "make difficult decisions" as they would have us believe.

Imperialleather2 · 28/06/2015 10:28

Op there is a notion of being gracious in defeat. Get over it

We had a democratic election the Tories won. You'd be better arguing for PR being introduced than trying to over turn a recently elected government.

wigglylines · 28/06/2015 10:49

"Get over it"

See this dorsn't apply if you think - as many if us do - that the public has been manipulated and misled into voting Tory.

If this government stood on a platform where they were open about their ideology and the real reasons behind the cuts, and people voted for that then fair enough.

But while people still believe the lie that the Tories are having to make cuts because of the "mess Labour got us into" and while they still think benefit reform is happening because benefit scrounging is a massive problem or because the Tories want to help people, we're not going to shut up about it because an injustice is happening, people are being conned.

Gemauve · 28/06/2015 10:55

the public has been manipulated and misled into voting Tory.

Ah, democracy is OK so long as the result is the one you want, otherwise it's evidence that everyone apart from you is an idiot. Presumably you avoided this manipulation because you're cleverer and clearer-eyed than the others?

My Labour ward meeting last week was full of this sort of nonsense. We lost because our policies were rejected by the electorate, and because we failed to communicate a central message. The electorate are never wrong. It is our job in the Labour Party to do better next time. Trot headbangers complaining that the electorate can't be trusted to vote the right way don't help anyone I mean you, Corbyn.

Imperialleather2 · 28/06/2015 11:06

I voted Tory I don't think I was conned into doing so, but thanks for your concern

If it makes the bitter pill of defeat easier for you to swallow to believe that people were conned into making a choice that you dont like them so be it. However I think you will be disappointed.

Gemauve · 28/06/2015 11:18

I voted Tory I don't think I was conned into doing so

The argument from the headbangers is that you only think you weren't conned into it, but you were really: they know your mind better than you. It even has a word in what headbangers grandly call "theory" (ie, lengthy fourth-rate essays written by third-rate academics at second-rate institutions): "false consciousness".

Squidzin · 28/06/2015 11:20

The very notion of Austerity is another con.

It benefits those with capital (property owners, employers etc) by making the rest of us have-not's more vulnerable, desperate and therefore cheaper and more exploitable.

The USA managed to come out of the crash and associated recession without Austerity.

The UK and Europe still has not recovered. Even Jean-Claude Juncker and the European Commission acknowledge that austerity is no longer the best policy for Europe. However, the Tories are keen to promote the notion because most of them are buy-to-let landlords with inherited wealth and shares in whatever private companies.

So yes, to say that this program of Austerity and how Labour caused the recession by spending is a con-artisit's PR exercise, is a massive understatement.

cambridgeglobalist.org/2015/03/12/the-politics-of-the-politics-of-european-austerity/

But Booting out Cameron is NOT an invitation to bring in Labour!

Gemauve · 28/06/2015 11:43

The USA managed to come out of the crash and associated recession without Austerity.

Do you have a political understanding of what you write, or are you just cut and pasting talking points?

The USA couldn't cut its NHS, because it doesn't have one (even less so in 2008/9, pre ACA). It couldn't cut its out of work benefits for single people, because it doesn't have them. It couldn't cut housing benefit, because it doesn't have it (there are exceptions in a few states, but there is nothing at a federal level). It couldn't cut child benefit, tax credits, you name it. The US does not have a welfare state in any recognisable form, has very few in-work benefits, and out-of-work benefits are at a level and a form (Food Stamps, for example) which would make the fantasies of the unelectable Tory hard right look like the work of Tony Benn.

Talking about "Austerity" in the context of US governments is crazy stuff, because they have always had a society which makes even ours today look like a welfare paradise.

Squidzin · 28/06/2015 12:04

Everything I said is technically true, though. And you know it. Sorry to bust your Tory agenda.

Gemauve · 28/06/2015 12:15

Sorry to bust your Tory agenda.

I'll be sure to make your points at the Labour constituency meeting on Friday. We were wondering how to win the next election, and thanks to you we'll now have a winning strategy.

soapboxqueen · 28/06/2015 12:37

I don't think there is any point to such a petition. It's not going to happen and just sounds bizarre. You'd be far better putting your efforts into a more proportional voting system. There are plenty of alternatives.

Fwiw the tories don't have a mandate from the people. They have a mandate because of a voting system. So has pretty much every other government we've ever had. It needs to change. Government needs to reflect the people not the ability to get voted in.

queensansastark · 28/06/2015 12:48

If the OP is so unhappy about life under the Tories why don't you try emigrating...it'd be easier than trying to over turn the election result, and replace with what exactly? I don't know what the OP is thinking there....you think it is impossible for the country to descend into lawlessness in a power vacuum/chaos? And you think that would be a better scenario or outcome than the current state of affairs?

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 28/06/2015 12:50

Vote the conservatives out, and vote who in???

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