Migration and benefits

[TheFutureSupremeRulersMum]

Just watching Daily Politics on BBC2 and saw David Cameron talking about not letting migrants claim benefits until they have contributed for 4 years. I didn't hear whether he explained in more detail what he means by contribute but it made me think of two things. What about people born here too; why shouldn't everyone have to "contribute" for 4 years. Also, they he said it makes it sound like all migrants choose to move here. What about people who are trafficked here? If they can't claim benefits or get a council house then doesn't that mean it will be even more difficult for them to leave their situation?

I must admit I had the same thoughts.

One of the principles of EU is that whatever rule you have cannot discriminate against another EU citizen. So...if they changed the rules as you've suggested then as far as I understand it then everything is fine as far as the EU goes. But if they say "Well if you're born in the UK it's one thing. but if you are born in these countries (effectively the other 26) then it's another thing". Then that's wrong and illegal under EU law.

I read somewhere once, unfortunately I can't remember where, that one of the biggest problems with our benefits system is that it's non-contributory unlike most other Western European countries. Maybe given the state of our national finances we should rethink that anyway. I mean it does seem fair to me that if you haven't put in, then you shouldn't get out. The only exceptions being when someone is a victim of domestic abuse or suchlike.

Four years is also quite a long time. Why not 2 years? I doubt most immigrants could survive for two years without tax credits etc if they NEED the money. Make it two years all round and be done with it.

It's rubbish what our politicians feed, it's very hard for us to claim benefits in France or Spain. A very strict system especially to foreigners no luxury of NHS or translators. I don't blame the people I blame the clowns who decide and manage such rules. Take the Romani gypsy people who were poorly treated by the Romanians for years. Denied education and basic human rights, infecting kids in the 90s with HIV for 'experiments' well, now they are an EU country the Romani flock here most are illiterate and beg or claim benefits to support large families, it's very sad because for the ones that are here we are picking up the pieces for the way the Romanians treated them in the first place. I hope the generation to come in romania are treated better due to eu law.

What about people born here too; why shouldn't everyone have to "contribute" for 4 years.

Because a significant number of 16 and 17 year olds have to claim Income Support through Sixth Form in order to eat.

Because a policy that condemned 19 and 20 year olds who lost their jobs to rough sleeping and starvation would be illegal as well as immoral.

Because illness, accidents, domestic violence, crisis, redundancy do not happen by appointment.

Because life isn't quite as simple as you seem to think it is.

@arsenic

all that applies to europeans too.

we should house the vulnerable, and provide food. But the welfare state here goes beyond that, and politicians are making scapegoats of europeans.

Actually, I think the smart political move would be to require EU citizens resident in the UK to register.

As a UK citizen if I want to exercise my EU freedom of movement, I will find it isn't unconditional. I can take work in an EU country; Most EU countries will allow me to stay if I can prove self-employment or independent means. But if I can't evidence one of those three things, I won't be welcome.

That's the discrepancy. Forget the benefits angle, per se. The benefits dirge is just a broken Tory record.

I was made homeless last year and placed in a hostel of 50 rooms. (Temporary accommodation). Me and another resident were the only Brit borns awaiting housing. It's the government policy's that need to change like I say because let's be honest the housing system is running out, stock is being sold, housing not being built yet more and more people are on the list than ever

I am not ashamed to of claimed benefits in my life, I have paid thousands more in tax and years more of work than I have claimed, but I have no choice but to soon as I will be having a baby.

Under 25s get 48 pounds a week by the way that's hardly anything. It's disgusting. I really can't stand the government and their out of touch rubbish and these people who are self entitlement 'I pay tax so should scroungers'

Circumstances change overnight, men leave mothers, they have no choice. Parents leave kids, they fend for themselves. Things happen.

As a UK citizen if I want to exercise my EU freedom of movement, I will find it isn't unconditional. I can take work in an EU country; Most EU countries will allow me to stay if I can prove self-employment or independent means. But if I can't evidence one of those three things, I won't be welcome.

that's true of europeans here. I am "exercising treaty rights" which means i have to satisfy certain conditions.

Circumstances change overnight, men leave mothers, they have no choice. Parents leave kids, they fend for themselves. Things happen.

Exactly Lulu.

The unluckiest Britons have been stamped on quite enough in the last few years.

I don't think we are anything like as tight on it as, say Sweden or the Natherlands are we Written?

(And the availability of benefits is part of our comparative slackness/leniency)

Netherlands^

I don't think we are anything like as tight on it as, say Sweden or the Natherlands are we Written?

I don't know what the rules are in Sweden and Netherlands, but they can set whatever welfare rules they want as long as they don't treat other europeans differently. as for free movement of people, I welcome enlightening. What do they do that we don't?

I'll check in the morning, rather than rely on 1am memory.

A brief browse confirms that many EU countries run a system where access to many public services is dependent on having confirmed ones right to reside and reconfirming it periodically.

So; health services, welfare benefits, aspects of education, driving licencing issues and various other issues all require a single card or 'person number'. Unlike our diffuse system. It's more efficient bureaucracy basically.

Matters here are much more laissez faire in practice.

your comments are rather vague so I can't really say anything about it.

however, I was surprised at how easy it is to get services in this country of any kind. but that's the british being lax across the board. and any other country can have different standards as long as it doesn't discriminate against other europeans.

I would imagine that we could come up with an arrangement for someone who was kidnapped and brought here so I think that's irrelevant. A migrant is someone who has come here voluntarily.

I don't know why it has to be so long, but I can see the sense of a system that says you have to at least work here a bit first. After all that is what people are supposedly doing isn't it? migrating for work? If someone said their reason for coming here was to get benefits who would think that was ok?

I don't know why it has to be so long, but I can see the sense of a system that says you have to at least work here a bit first. After all that is what people are supposedly doing isn't it? migrating for work? If someone said their reason for coming here was to get benefits who would think that was ok?

your first question: scapegoating.

your second point doesn't address in work benefits. The problem is that in this country a huge portion of the population gets benefits of some kind, working or not. why should europeans be any different? We don't expect that most brits can survive without benefits, so why should europeans?

in fact, didn't a UCL study find that immigrants are less likely to be on benefits (the picture is mixed, depending on whether they are european or not).

Good point about in-work benefits, have they spelt out which they mean because I was thinking of unemployment benefits then.

And yes about scapegoating. I think unlimited immigration is not sustainable so I want the government to put some limits it, but I don't want them mistreating immigrants as part of a scheme to blame everything on them.

I can't in any way blame someone for wanting to move here if it's better for them. Obviously I'd do the same thing if it worked for me.

And yes I'm sure that the vast majority come here to work. That would normally be the most profitable thing they could do anyway. Work hard and live cheaply in fairly crap conditions so they can send as much home as possible.

Good point about in-work benefits, have they spelt out which they mean because I was thinking of unemployment benefits then.

BBC is reporting 4 year ban on 'in work benefits' Back

your comments are rather vague so I can't really say anything about it.

Look at the Swedish personnummer or the French CNIS. That is what we could do but don't. That laxity about enforcing the current legal situation is what makes 'grey' immigration easy. DC could make great play of tightening up there if he wanted to be seen to be doing something pre GE. This isn't just electioneering, it is hugely inflammatory.

BBC is reporting 4 year ban on 'in work benefits'

indeed. So why do we expect that europeans can survive without benefits but brits can't? are they superior?

personnummer brits don't like national ID cards, and neither do I.

Just a quick point - thousands of Brits are claiming out of work benefits across Europe too. What should happen to them. Should it then be reciprocal? Also, what happens to non - European immigrants? It's more complex than how the likes of Farage portrays it to be.

We should simply pay non-UK citizens who require benefits the same level of benefit they would be entitled to in their home country.

As writtenguarantee points out, EU immigrants are less likely to be 'on benefits' than British citizens.

Also, EU immigrants are net contributors to the economy.

So why are we even discussing this as if it were an issue?