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Politics

Douglas Carswell defects!

20 replies

Spinflight · 30/08/2014 03:54

Given his popularity in Clacton UKIP should soon have their first voice in parliament, and what a voice to have! There is no serving politician in the land I would prefer.

One of the few MPs who commands respect both within the house from all parties and, more importantly, outside.

This is a game changer for UKIP and a body blow to the despised tories.

His message was clear, if diplomatic. I don't trust Cameron.

Does anyone?

OP posts:
claig · 30/08/2014 09:15

'Does anyone?'

A poster known as Isitmebut trusts him implicitly as does a close-knit group of PPEs and progressive modernisers and PR advisers, but they are all probably now hitting the bottle, biting their nails and having kittens.

The by-election is in Essex. Grin

They don't know Essex. Their spinners have never ventured out here. It is their worst nightmare. Honest, decent, hardworking people, not a luvvie in sight.

Good thread about it here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2170219-Conservative-Carswell-defects-to-UKIP

claig · 30/08/2014 09:21

Cameron had to tell the whole cadre of progressive Tory MPs to go to Newark at least 3 times in the bid to hold on to Newark.

But even if the whole lot of them set up camp in Clacton for the entire duration, they still don't have a hope.

Isitmebut · 30/08/2014 18:44

“Whatever happened to Ukip, the 'people's party'?”

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100284448/whatever-happened-to-ukip-the-peoples-party/

“And then along came Roger Lord. Just as Nigel Farage and Douglas Carswell were patting each other on the back over their coup de théâtre (a little awkwardly, if reports from yesterday’s press conference are to be believed), the 57-year-old local farmer revealed to the world he had already been selected to fight Clacton for Ukip, and that he wasn’t planning on standing down for anyone. Issuing the sort of statement only a Ukip candidate could issue, he stubbornly declared: “I’ve had a 16-year-old shove a machine gun up my nose in Nicaragua. I’ve faced bigger threats from real killers, and if they think they can walk up to me and push me then I’ll push back. I’ve never run away from anything.”

“What is Ukip’s USP? Partly it’s that they are a group of people would have no truck with an acronym like USP. It’s a professional political operatives' phrase. A Westminster phrase. Ukip are the antithesis of that cozy, incestuous, Westminster cabal.”

“Or they were, until a member of that incestuous, cozy Westminster cabal comes up to them and asks: “can I be your candidate for Clacton?” At which point people like Roger Lord find themselves knifed with a political ruthlessness that would make Peter Mandelson blush.”

“In January Douglas Carswell was praising David Cameron for delivering Euro referendum. Yesterday he was attacking him for not delivering a Euro referendum. That is not principled or consistent opposition. It is classic political sophistry”

“It’s becoming clear that Douglas Carswell’s defection statement yesterday was not a wholly honest and honourable explanation, but an exercise in ex-post facto self-justification. Not unlike the resignation of his former colleague Baroness Warsi, he had clearly taken the decision to jump ship, and was looking for ways of rationalising it – both to the outside world, and himself. And to an extent, he’s achieved his aim.”

“But Carswell’s defection has come at a price for both himself and his party. As we’ve seen, his attempts to stand on a point of high principle have ended with him balanced precariously on a pin head. Ukip’s claim to be practitioners of a different kind of politics is being single-handedly demolished by Roger Lord’s brave defiance. And within Ukip’s ranks, many existing parliamentary candidates will have been watching Lord’s treatment, seen the rumours of other possible Tory defections, and been saying to themselves “there but for the grace of the national executive committee go I.”

Spinflight · 30/08/2014 22:12

Lol,

Any quoting that hodge podge is truly scraping the barrel. By election candidates are chosen by the NEC, it is in the rules.

Carswell was ordered to toe the party line, but evidently didn't trust Cameron. Simples.

One wonders whether even paid bloggers operating out of CCHQ really trust Cameron.

OP posts:
Isitmebut · 31/08/2014 16:49
  • Ukip’s Clacton candidate WAS Roger Lord, who joined Ukip in 1997 and loyally fought FOUR General Election for them.
  • Roger Lord is local, works the land as a farmer and as he is ‘a man of the people’ and a fighter, so having been knifed by Farage ( but had to hear it over the radio rather than from the man/party he supported for 17-years) he will continue to campaign for Ukip, as that’s the man he is.
  • Ukip rules state that you have to be a Ukip Member for 6-months before standing for public office.
  • Ukip tell us that they will win a General Election with their candidates beating the Conservatives because THEIR 20-year old party with no policy credibility at all, is so “different” in ethics and not run by the ‘elites’ in Westminster, or anywhere else.

So WHY does Ukip, financed and run by a rich backer (Stuart Wheeler) on his policies, not Farages, trying to poach via interviews in a Mayfair restaurant SITTING Conservative MP’s - with good local voter support for the job THEY have done over 4-years or more, breaking Ukips own membership rules - if they were SO confident with the candidates they have?????? Lol

Why would a very anti EU Mr Carswell praising cameron recently for giving him all he asked for in a 2017 EU Referendum, join a political party that pretends it can bring the UK out of the EU, and whose very existence means a pro EU Labour Party who only needs 31% of the vote in 2015 to form the next government in 2015 (with or withot the pro EU Lib Dems) – thus GUARANTEEING that the UK stays IN the EU for at least another 5-years?

Mr Carswell knows that unlike Ukips, Conservative General Election manifestos are considered binding, unless Ukip voters AGAIN ensures the only party that CAN deliver an EU vote is in a coalition a pro EU Lib Dem party (and a government without a majority) so their manifesto has to be negotiated. So if he has not ‘jumped’ for ANY chance of leaving the EU, is for power, to ensure he keeps his seat/salary and be ‘a big cog in a little wheel’????

“Stuart Wheeler (born 30 January 1935) is a British businessman and politician. He made his fortune as the founder of the spread betting firm IG Index in 1974, but is best known for his political activism,[1] being formerly a major donor to the Conservative Party and, since 2011, treasurer of the United Kingdom Independence Party.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Wheeler

“UKIP Treasurer Stuart Wheeler's comment 'was sexist'”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23717804
“Stuart Wheeler has denied being sexist by saying women were "nowhere near as good as men" at games like chess, bridge and poker.”

“Mr Wheeler said he had been explaining why companies should not be forced to appoint more women to their boards”

Spinflight · 01/09/2014 02:40

Dear me...

The mainstream media and our local CCHQ paid blogger trumpeting the same line, that Mr Lord is an honourable and righteous man who has been visciously wronged. How many months ago was it that this gentleman was, in Cameron's words, a closet racist, a fruitcake and a swivel eyed loon?

We are to believe that the tories and their media are standing up for a UKIP member are we?

Fact is that Douglas Carswell didn't merely intend to join UKIP, he insisted upon resigning his seat in order to force a by election and renew his mandate. Had he merely retained his seat in the HoC then that is a different matter.

By election candidates however are decided by the NEC, hence there is nothing improper here.

"Conservative General Election manifestos are considered binding..."

Most amusing statement I've seen on here in quite some time.

Indeed I believe Mr Wheeler brought a court case arguing that manifesto commitments were binding against.. the tories. They won the case arguing that they were merely loose intentions. Or lies to you and me.

Do you trust David Cameron IsitMeBut?

OP posts:
mymummademelistentoshitmusic · 01/09/2014 04:48

I don't, but trust the bunch of arseholes that are labour even less. What to do?

Isitmebut · 01/09/2014 13:00

Spinflight …. Re Mr Lord, could you please post the link where Mr Cameron called Mr Lord those names, as the irony of this is that Mr Lord looks one of your best candidates - but UKIP’S WHEELER/FARAGE DID NOT TRUST HIM after fighting 4 general elections for you, to deliver Ukip a win – why was that????

Re Conservative Manifestos, clearly NOT EVERY ONE in a parliament that used to be often less than 5-years are always legislatively possible, especially when merged within a two-party coalition Ukip forced the Conservatives into - but the KEY ones are e.g. a 2017 EU Referendum.

Labour in early 2010, nearly 3-years after the crash, were still clueless, telling us they would increase taxes e.g. National Insurance (a jobs tax), and keep an expensive £170 billion plus Quango ridden fat expensive state as it was – and that was the way to Ballsian ‘growf’.

Where were any solutions then (and now) in their manifesto to even “the cost of living crisis” (fall in wage growth) evident after any major recession, never mind the worst for 100-years? Have a look for yourself.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8615297.stm

Ukip after over 20-years as a political party, still does not have any UK domestic policies on the economy, social issues, housing etc that they STAND BY, as they ‘flip flop’ polices/manifestos almost yearly, depending on which political party’s votes they are after – did Mr Wheeler bring a court case against Farage producing what HE called “drivel”, especially as Wheeler financed it????
news.sky.com/story/1200525/nigel-farage-disowns-ukip-manifesto-as-drivel

Ukips 2010 General Election manifesto was wholly wiped off their website, but below is the BBCs summary – including Grammar Schools Mr Wheeler insists on AND taking the Public Sector staff levels back to 1997, thereby firing 1 million public sector employees and similar from local authorities.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8617187.stm

So re ‘trusting Cameron’, who’s party has to keep taking the economy out of the crapper and giving it back to Labour to wreck - just looking at the flakey Labour and UKip alternatives - I’don’t think the country can afford NOT TO trust him to continue to make tough decisions and maintain our economic recovery._ lol

ironmaiden999 · 01/09/2014 22:51

Great news, that Carswell has defected! Has anyone read his book? I think it's called The end of politics, and the beginning of democracy?

You can't trust 'Dave' on the EU, and to boot he's not a Conservative! He's a
Liberal, otherwise myself and others would vote for him.

I only hope many other Tories defect as well. Cheers Wine

claig · 02/09/2014 08:14

Cheers Wine

Isitmebut · 02/09/2014 11:21

Ironmaiden999 …. Cameron’s record from 2010, SPEAKS FOR ITSELF having inherited a BROKEN - economy, banking system, businesses not hiring, Council Taxe s up over 110%, out of control immigration esprcially in NON EU citizens that COULD be controlled, too few home builds, a net loss of social housing, 5 million NEEDING social housing, education with 1 million unemployed UK 16-24 year olds who could NOT compete for UK jobs, unreformed benefit system, £38 bil over budgeted under equipped armed forces, germ infested hospitals, police a law to themselves, derisory state pension rises etc etc etc ; with a £157 billion a year Labour overspend to fix it all with?????

That Ukip’s answers in 2010 to a UK in crisis, was Farage to call ALL their domestic policy ideas “drivel”?????

Ironmaiden999 ….. are you one of the old Conservatives in a party split by the EU, who did not want ‘change’, who PRIOR to Mr Cameron, in 2005 CAMPAIGNED on ‘controlled immigration” but only polled around 8,785,000 votes, to the COMBINED pro EU/Immigrations Labour and Lib Dem votes of 15,538,000 ????

An ‘old’ Conservative result that produced 198 seats in parliament - to Labour’s 355 seats and the even more pro EU, immigration and asylum seekers Lib Dems, 62 seats.

Conservative 2005 Manifesto .

Titled; “Are you thinking what we are thinking?” It’s time for action.

Secure borders and controlled immigration: The manifesto proposes a new border police at Britain's busiest air and sea ports, with 24 hour surveilance. The party would set a quota on economic migrants and reject asylum-seekers who are not vetted by the UNHCR.

"Party leader Michael Howard summed up the manifesto: "If you long for cleaner hospitals, more police, school discipline, controlled immigration, lower taxes and accountability - you can vote for it, on 5 May", accusing prime-minister Tony Blair, who is campaigning for his third term, of letting the country down."
en.wikinews.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_launches_manifesto

Democracy produced those above results, and until ‘democracy’ can directly allocate an annual £100 billion (down from £157 billion) UK OVERSPEND - and come up with ideas to solve a £1,400,000,000,000 National Debt growing by that overspend each year – I suggest they leave it to the Conservative professionals who you now need to poach and fixed the UK from 1979, handed over the fastest growing economy in Europe in 1997, only to get back another basket case in 2010.

www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

As Ukip are political wannabes who eject their own Uk domestic manifesto ideas before its first birthday, and whose vote ENSURES a pro EU Labour Party gets back in power to do MORE damage, potentially due to electoral boundaries for more than another 5-years - they are doing this country in a debt crisis, us, our children, and their children NO FAVOURS AT ALL.

claig · 02/09/2014 13:29

I think I read something similar from CCHQ.

More spin!

Isitmebut · 02/09/2014 14:39

Claig ….. I realise that following Farage you wouldn’t recognize FACTS if slapped in the face with a wet kipper, but I directly answered a point for those who wanted the ‘old’ Conservative’s back, which is WHY your rich backer stopped supporting the Conservatives – and chose to try and force his ‘elitist’ money and ideas on the rest of the nation via Ukip.

Your Mr Wheeler wants the unelectable Conservatives back who campaigned to get immigration under control 6-years before Labour even hinted there was a PROBLEM.

Now I don’t read Conservative websites, I think I know more about the Conservative values, post Thatcher history and successes than those tossers put together – and as I hear that they refuse to criticise Carswell due to the fear of upsetting any other Europhile, that either wants to join or do a deal with Ukip – please provide the similar link to my post above.

Now tell me where you see the following on the CCHQ; If ANY Conservative MP disloyal to Cameron’s changes/successes and the rest of the Conservative party/workers/voters - and believes that Ukip are the answer and that 'protesting' about Europe is more important than keeping the country’s economy and Conservative party intact – then FUCK OFF NOW to Ukip, we don’t want you.

Thus bringing back pro EU Labour (and Lib Dems) on a perpetual European socialist ticket and whose MP’s, councillors, public services and trade union apparachics do everything en mass their leaders want them to do, no matter how damaging to the country/society/voters for ‘the grand cause’.

Which is basically to keep out Conservatives who mange to run the sustainable UK economy they can’t.

claig · 02/09/2014 17:03

'Now I don’t read Conservative websites, I think I know more about the Conservative values, post Thatcher history and successes than those tossers put together'

You're not alone, just about everyone does, and that includes Humphrey the Cat

Isitmebut · 03/09/2014 13:02

Who's been Humping the cat, the mice????

In other words you CANNOT find my own 11.21am words on CCHQ - and not even bothering to look for my 14.39 advice to other Conservative's choosing to leave and join Ukip, that involved 'sex and travel' - that wasn't a holiday in Clacton.

ironmaiden999 · 03/09/2014 22:16

Isitmebut. 'Sex and travel' are you talking about UKIP? (this party sounds more appealing by the day!) If it is, where is it all going on? Do tell us!
Grin

Isitmebut · 04/09/2014 10:54

Ironmaiden999 …… Unfortunately I’m not offering a Club 18-30 type par-tay in Clacton (and yes I did go on one in Greece many moon orbital cycles ago), my advice re ‘sex and travel’ is confined to Conservative MP’s who put their ego and self interests ahead of the Conservative Party, the voters and ultimately the country, by no means out of the problems in had prior to May 2010.

Btw, is there no challenge to my shortlist of Cameron led coalition achievements and 2005 General Election proof of the electoral liability of those deemed old style Conservative, unable to get a political ‘swing vote’ increase of over 1% - DESPITE an attractive manifesto INCLUDING controlling immigration?

Isitmebut · 04/09/2014 13:13

Talking of Clacton and the shabby treatment of a loyal Ukipper that had fought 4 general elections for them and led to believe (before he was dumped without even a phone call) that he was to fight the 2015 General Election - the last paragraph is their official defence on upgrading at the first opportunity to a sitting Conservative MP with loyal constituency support.

“Clacton by-election: UKIP's Roger Lord hits out at Nigel Farage”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-29045467

“The UKIP politician overlooked as the party's candidate in the wake of the defection of Tory MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, has accused Nigel Farage of "turning my career to dust".”

“Mr Carswell's defection to UKIP last week triggered a by-election for his seat, due to take place on 9 October.”

”A UKIP spokesman said Mr Lord had never been the by-election candidate for Clacton.”

How slippery is that, Mr Lord was not selected to fight a by-election in October, as it was the knifing of Mr Lord to poach a sitting MP in a seat they told us they could win, that CAUSED the 'kin by-election in the first place. Duh.

ironmaiden999 · 04/09/2014 23:28

isitmebut. Yes, I think they probably did stab Mr. Lord in the back, but didn't the Labour party do the same? I think they parachuted Tristram Hunt into a seat, above a local man who had lived in the area some 35 years. All politicians do it, this man would have been told to put the party before himself or words to that effect. Having met Nigel Farage (and others in UKIP) on quite a few occasions, he is certainly harder than the press make out, he is not cuddly at all, although he does smile a lot!

As far as Cameron is concerned, he has not controlled immigration, in fact it's up, didn't 150.000 people enter Britain last year?
Whilst there's free movement of people in the EU, he can't do much about it. Although he could cut the billions we give both to the EU each year and to foreign aid, save some of that money and try to stop the fiasco that is happening in Calais, with illegal immigrants.
Cameron just does not seem to have the will to do it. I would be very frustrated if I were a Tory, as I know they have lost half of the membership. There are many reasons people have left the Tory (and Labour/Lib) ship. I would say the main reason is most people who leave believe the elite in Westminster don't care about them or worse despise them. Good night Brew

Isitmebut · 05/09/2014 14:37

Ironmaiden999 ….. re the treatment of Ukip’s Mr Lord who had been campaigning for Ukip since 1997 and ‘all political party’s do it’, you still don’t see it do you? Firstly there are probably a thousand posts on Mumsnet (mostly by Claig) lecturing us on how Ukip are NOT like other political parties.

Secondly, on the parachuting of Labour’s Hunt into another seat, Ukip (Claig) keeps telling us that the elitist Conservatives and their anti Christ backers have to be replaced, when Ukip’s rich backer is actively trying to recruit sitting Conservative MP’s, via his Mayfair restaurant lunch club, into Ukip – which is priceless whichever way you look at that.

Re Cameron's record, so you have confirmed you CANNOT DISAGREE on his achievements I’ve listed, plus help for state pensioners after years of derisory rises and the lower paid via raising the level they pay taxes - or his part in rescuing the UK from a previous totally incompetent Labour administration, with no clue how to solve anything in 2010, other that raise taxes to be announced after the 2010 General Election.

On Cameron’s net immigration figures, you seems confused, as on the one hand you agree that he (or any country within the EU) cannot do much about the free movement of European workers as part of being IN the EU, and on the other hand start rattling off Ukip soundbites meant to stir up the masses.

On EU immigration and the NET UK immigration figure Cameron targeted, I’m not sure if you have worked it out yet that the more pooh the EU finds itself in, and the better the UK economy/job market is, FEWER UK citizens will leave, or indeed come back home which also influences the net figures - and MORE EU citizens will come here, as we saw last month when those from the larger countries came here to work.

The quickest way to STOP this would be a Conservative 2017 Referendum and ‘the people’ giving an OUT vote, which Ukip voters in 2015 ensures will not happen.

On NON EU citizens coming here, the annual average of Commonwealth and Other, according to the link below on Table 1, in the 1990’s, the annual average was around 86,000 each section.

Yet in the 2000’s this changed significantly, as looking at just the years 2004 and 2005, when EU immigration was expected and was much larger than expected, Commonwealth and Other figures WE HAD CONTROL OVER were combined at around DOUBLE those immigrants from the EU.
In 2004 (arriving) EU 130,000..Commonwealth 215,000 ….Other 155,000
In 2005 (arriving) EU 152,000...Commonwealth 180,000 …….Other 137,000
migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/long-term-international-migration-flows-and-uk

Now I’m sure the must have been estimated EU figure would have been revised higher by now, whereas the Commonwealth and Other as signed it will be the same, so ask yourself WHY with the prospect of EU immigration did both figures knowingly increase hugely from the 1990’s annual average of 86,000 each?

Now I believe that the immigration we could control went down by at least 33% under Cameron and closer to the 1990’s averages, but I’ll leave you to do your own homework on that.

In Conclusion; under Cameron NET EU immigration has been affected UPWARDS to his much lower than 100,000 target due to the weakness of the EU economy and strength of our economy BUT those potential migrants from outside the EU, thanks to policies like closing several hundred bogus language schools etc, HAS dropped markedly.

A vote for Ukip’s Farage, is a vote for pro EU and broader immigration Labour’s Miliband - so why should anyone who sees the continued membership of the EU, immigration and a strong economy as issues to vote on, waste a vote for a talent less UKIP, that aspires to recruiting more Conservatives???

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