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Politics

Clegg v Farage Round 2

65 replies

WetAugust · 02/04/2014 19:01

Roll up for Part 2!

OP posts:
Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:38

I just like the idea of it, I think it's a beautiful project! The way I see it, we don't realise how much we have in common culturally and historically, kind of like siblings who are always squabbling but are still family.

For me the economic side is just an added benefit, not the main thing. I wouldn't mind paying extra taxes to be a member of the club (maybe I already do!).

Feel free to tell me I'm hopelessly idealistic Grin

Marine Le Pen wants to leave the EU and go back to the Franc, of course. Before her the FN was a party of racist extremists and holocaust deniers, and she's done a great job cleaning it up and making it look more acceptable. Hers is the only major party that would ever consider leaving the EU, though.

claig · 03/04/2014 15:48

I agree, Europe is a fantastic place. The economic side is a disaster with the Euro. Hollande is the most unopular French President in history and the economic situation is partially to blame for that, and in Spain, Greece, Ireland, Portugal and even Italy, the economics are bad.

It is really about democracy. The EU is a superstate and European peoples have no real democratic control over it. At the moment, it is still weak politically because the unaccountable leaders have not yet been able to fully integrate it, but if and when they do, it is likely that it will be in an expansive mood that will run into conflict with Russia, as we are beginning to see with Ukraine etc.

I think that Farage is right when he said if the EU does not end democratically, then it may end violently and that will cause major problems and spread all over Europe.

The unaccountable elites want to force integration, but that goes against the will of the peoples.

claig · 03/04/2014 15:51

"Europe is facing an ‘existential crisis’ that could end in violent revolution and war, the French foreign minister warned last night.

In the bleakest assessment yet of the euro crisis, Alain Juppe, a former French prime minister, said the spiralling debt crisis could trigger ‘the explosion of the European Union itself’.

Mr Juppe told the French news magazine L’Express that the deepening crisis was creating a dangerous breeding ground for violent nationalism, reminiscent of the 1930s.

He said: ‘This is an existential crisis for Europe that raises the spectre of a return to violent conflict on our continent."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2068533/Europes-debt-crisis-trigger-violent-revolution-war-warns-French-foreign-minister.html

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:55

Oh yes, I agree that the lack of democracy and accountability is a huge issue. But to me the solution is not to give up on the EU, it's to try and fix it.

I'd like to see a politically united EU, not just an economic trade agreement, so I would actually be in favour of an EU army/foreign policy/etc. And I don't see any indication at all the EU would be an expansionist power? Certainly not with the Germans wielding the amount of influence they do, they've been down that path before and they know full well it doesn't lead anywhere good.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:03

Are you not worried about what is happening in Ukraine?

Are you not worried that every leader thinks the same? They all boycott Russia in the Sochi games, they all use the same rhetoric.

Do you not see that most of them are not in control but are just followers. Small countries have to go along. Do you not see that a united common foreign policy would be dictated by the strongest and could lead to disaster against the wishes of the public in many countries in Europe?

It will eventually be doomed to failure, since only force could hold it together. Countries like France would never accept it for long. French people would revolt and revolts would spread across Europe and cause terrible problems as the Empire collapses, just as the Soviet Empire collapsed.

It is a system built for and by bureucrats, not for the people. The elite who created it will never allow people's voices to be really heard in a democratic way.

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 16:04

About the Juppé comments: well yes, he's saying that the problem is populist leaders arguing for nationalism, and that the worst possible thing it could lead to is a violent explosion of the EU.

So he's actually making the opposite argument to Farage!

claig · 03/04/2014 16:06

I think France will end it.
I don't know when it will be, but I think it will collapse.

meditrina · 03/04/2014 16:08

"Are you not worried about what is happening in Ukraine?"

Do you mean Russia's actions in the east, or the massive popularity of the very far right in the west?

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 16:12

those are all arguments that were made when the US of A were created out of a bunch of independent states, and they've done pretty well for themselves!

now my vision may be unrealistic right now, that I can agree with. I don't think most people in Europe are quite ready to abandon their nationalistic points of view :-P

But maybe, just maybe, we could slowly work towards it, as long as it was done democratically, by the people, as you're saying.

about Ukraine: well, I certainly don't think the solution is to let Putin play out Russia's expansionist ambitions. I think it would actually help to have a strong, united Europe telling him he can't just do as he pleases. What would be your solution?

claig · 03/04/2014 16:16

No, Farage is right.

The reason that people across Europe have turned to right wing parties is because the Euro is a disaster and the European Project, with its democratic deficit, is a disaster.

The rise of nationalism is a symptom of the disease and the disease is the democratic deficit and rule by an unelected, unaccountable elite.

Farage is saying, we must end Europe democratically, or the end result of the bureaucrats' policies will be a violent end to it against their wishes.

Farage is a true statesman. He dares say that the Emperor Has No Clothes and that the Empire will collapse. He challenges all of the bureaucrats who speak with the same voice over Ukraine, Syria, Putin, Libya and Europe.

Farage is the canary in the coalmine warning what will happen.

Farage was right about the Euro and he told Cleggy "thank God we didn't follow your advice".

Cleggy studied at he "College of Europe" in Brussels. He is not a statesman. He said that in "the modern world" we must "work together" in Europe to tackle "climate change" which "crosses border" and "criminals" who "cross borders". For those laughable things, the fool wishes to cede our sovereignty. He cannot see what lies ahead. Farage can see it and he is not scared to say it. He was right about the Euro and he is right about the EU and the disaster of where it will lead.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:21

'Do you mean Russia's actions in the east, or the massive popularity of the very far right in the west?'

I mean what Farage said that the EU has given false hope to the Western Ukrainians who then toppled an elected President in Russia's backyard where its Black Sea Fleet is based. Everybody knew that Russia could not accept any threat to losing its fleet's port in Crimea.

The EU is weak, it is easily led as are teh small countries that make it up. Mistakes risk disaster. Farage said we must not have a common foreign policy because it is obvious where that would lead. We would inevitably "poke the bear" and small countries would not have any say in it, but would have to face the consequences.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:26

"those are all arguments that were made when the US of A were created out of a bunch of independent states, and they've done pretty well for themselves!"

Yes, they have done very well. They are the world's Empire. But they all speak the same language and have the same culture. In Europe, we don't.
As Farage said, Europe is a wonderful place with different cultures, languages, food, architecture wherever you go. Homogenizing and forcing unity will fail because European peoples have different cultures, traditions, histories and opinions.

The French people will never accept control by an unelected elite of bureaucrats and they will be the ones who pull the house down. The unelected bureaucrats cannot control the French Samson forever.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:28

' I think it would actually help to have a strong, united Europe telling him he can't just do as he pleases. What would be your solution?'

My solution is the same as Farage's. No false hope should have been given to the Western Ukrainians by the EU. Ukraine has nothing to do with us. It is in Russia's backyard and interfering risks potential war.

niceguy2 · 03/04/2014 16:31

I agree that most of us don't want to see a common EU army. But we've been in NATO for a long time and that seems to have worked well.

It makes a lot of sense to collaborate on defence. Share designs and manufacturing (eg. Eurofighter). Like it or not we are reliant upon the US & EU countries ala NATO for collective defence.

I guess how we collaborate is the blurred grey area isn't it? Would a EU fleet of refuelling tankers be a good idea or bad? Because in theory it could save us all a lot of money to share stuff like that. But I do get that if we had to go defend the Falklands again then it could be a clusterfuck if other EU countries objected.

to have so many o its own hom-grown citizens languishing on benefits

You see this is my main point about whipping up fear about immigration. You assume that the reason these people are on benefits is because of immigrants coming and taking the jobs they'd have otherwise done.

But there are many other factors such as the fact our benefits system actively traps people into staying on benefits.

Too many of our 'home grown' citizen's don't value hard work anymore. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. Immigrants have filled those positions because our citizens think they're too good for those sorts of jobs.

How many of our citizens have left school with fuck all qualifications. Trying to compete for jobs increasingly complex and requiring much more skills than they have? Of course they don't think that it's THEIR responsibility that they aren't suitably qualified but that it's the government's fault for not getting them a job.

But hey, let's not examine the complex issues. It's much simpler to just blame the immigrants who by & large have come to this country to work damn hard, pay taxes, can't claim benefits and get on in life.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:43

' How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories.'

This is all bullshit. Capitalist propaganda by employers who want a cheap Labour pool.

"Thousands of job-seekers queued for THREE HOURS to land one of just 40 jobs at supermarket giants Aldi"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587293/Thousands-job-seekers-queued-THREE-HOURS-land-one-just-40-jobs-supermarket-giants-Aldi.html

People are desperate for work and a future. People apply for jobs as cleaners and in factories, but they are chasing jobs with hundreds applying for the same job.

This is what is really going on as people are exploited by gangmasters for the profit of some businesses. Pay a proper wage, with transport costs etc and tens of thousands of our youngsters willbe queueing up to work.

"Britain's new slaves: To millions of migrants, our streets seem paved with gold. But what awaits many is savage exploitation by gangmasters from their own lands"

An owner often looks like his dog — and Edikas Mankevicius is no exception to that rule.

Anyone who worked for him and did not meet with his approval would risk a home visit from the shaven-headed gangmaster and one of his rottweilers.

His approach was simple and terrifying. The front door of the workers’ overcrowded and flea-infested accommodation would be opened — or, as on one occasion, kicked down — and the dog released with the command in Lithuanian: ‘Attack.’

...

The workers were always Lithuanian because in that way he could control them much better,’ says Danielius.

The initial promises were attractive.

‘Mankevicius said he would get me a well-paid, stable job if I paid him £350 up front. I would then also have to pay £50 per week for my accommodation in Maidstone.’

Danielius says Mankevicius told him he would soon be earning around £500 a week — an enormous amount for a teenager from a country where the average monthly wage is barely more than that. Not surprisingly, he took the job.

Two matters were apparent from the start; the work was dreadful and once a worker had signed up, it was ‘almost impossible to quit’.

Danielius tells me about a typical day: ‘We would have to wake up when it was still night and travel in a van to some distant farm.

‘A team of ten to 11 people would work for two to three hours non-stop catching the chickens running free in a large shed. There could be thousands of them. It’s not that easy catching chickens. In the first months, my hands were scratched to the bones. I still have scars on my arms from chicken claws.

‘The supervisor would be screaming at you all the time and we would be beaten if he thought we worked too slowly or did something wrong.'

‘And all of us had fleas. It was disgusting. While you’re catching the chickens their fleas are jumping in your face and getting on your body. And you would be covered in feathers and s*.

‘But you wouldn’t be allowed to wash. After we would finish at the first farm, we would have to jump in the van and immediately go to another one.

‘We could travel like this for up to two days, across England, Wales and Scotland.’

The journey from one farm to another could take seven hours, says Danielius.

‘No one will pay you for that travelling time, give you food, provide accommodation or even a shower. We didn’t have face masks either.’

His agreed earnings were £3 per 1,000 chickens caught. On one farm, a good team could catch as many as 10,000 to 12,000 chickens, earning £30 to £36 each.

But if their efforts were not deemed sufficiently competent by their Lithuanian supervisors, the consequences were brutal.

‘The supervisor would be screaming at you all the time and we would be beaten if he thought we worked too slowly or did something wrong.

‘Once, one man smashed my face and broke my nose. Often, the guy would shout and assault us simply because he was in a bad mood or had been drinking.’

Danielius adds: ‘At those moments, you are trying to think about all the good things that used to happen to you in life; about home and how you could possibly change your life again.

‘But without knowing the English language, without friends or money — where do you go?

‘None of us was making money there. We were punished for every little thing, for no reason. Many of us even ended up in debt. We had no hope at all.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2533576/Britains-new-slaves-To-millions-migrants-streets-paved-gold-But-awaits-savage-exploitation-gangmasters-lands.html

claig · 03/04/2014 16:51

We've got people on zero-hours contracts, we've got thousands queueing for jobs, and we've got an open door immigration policy.

It is a disgrace.

Cleggy is alright. He's on a large salary and even if the publi boot him out of his seat, I'm sure he'll become a Lord or a chum in Europe somewhere.

But milions of people are not alright and face a miserable future, and the EU and its stagnating markets and crippling Euro and open door immigration policies are all contributing to the disaster for ordinary people.

Farage knows that and says it and he says it because he cares about us and all European peoples too, just as he cares when he tells us about Syria nd Ukraine too.

He is not a spinner, he's not a chum, he didn't go to the "College of Europe", he didn't even go to Oxbridge, like the chums did.

That is why he cares and sees and understands what is happening and warns us where it will lead.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:59

Why do you think Tony Benn and Bob Crowe were against the EU?

It is the capitalists' paradise, big business heaven, where an endless workforce can be supplied with total free movement of labour and capital.

And then they tell us that our people are lazy and not prepared to work and haven't got the skills. They are lying, just as they lie about everything else - climate catastrophe, how many of our laws come from Europe and how much they claim in expenses.

WetAugust · 03/04/2014 17:01

You see this is my main point about whipping up fear about immigration. You assume that the reason these people are on benefits is because of immigrants coming and taking the jobs they'd have otherwise done.

Tell me Niceguy why you have totally ignored the context in which I set this i.e. that thise people 'languishing on benefits' would have had the hope of being trained by future employeres but this is no longer happening as employers can import an already trained workforce.

I am really disappointed that you chose to take a small part of my post out of context and twist it.

It's not whipping up fear - you're the one that's doing that by trying to make UKIP an anti-immigration party, which it is not. It's a fact. that we have one of the highest ever levels of youth unemployment as many of the jobs they could have hoped to get require skills that employers are finding elsewhere. That's not rascist that is fact.

And as long as we remain in the EU there is absolutely nothing that any party can do to prevent that.

My son is one of theose languishing on benefits , after 5 years of HE in a highly trained profession, as every one of the tens of jobs he has applied for wants 'experience' and he can't get the experience even though he has applied to potential employers to work for free to gain that experience.

As someone with decades of experience in the defence industry collaboration in capability acquisition is a nightmare.

But there are many other factors such as the fact our benefits system actively traps people into staying on benefits.

Yes, the last Lqbour governemnet preferred to keep people on benefits while actively encouraging immigration - they admitted it.

^
Too many of our 'home grown' citizen's don't value hard work anymore. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. Immigrants have filled those positions because our citizens think they're too good for those sorts of jobs^

That's rubbish. No one could work for the wages these gang masters pay - which in some cases are below the minium wage. But if you come from one of eastern European countries even those wages are many times what you could expect to get in your own country. Plus, your living expenses are minimal as you share housing with fellow workers and send your wages back to your familes in your home country - who can also calim Family Allowance as you're working in the UK so entitled to claim it. And that's good for the UK ecomony? I don't think so.
We gave up trying to make people work years ago.

How many of our citizens have left school with fuck all qualifications. Trying to compete for jobs increasingly complex and requiring much more skills than they have? Of course they don't think that it's THEIR responsibility that they aren't suitably qualified but that it's the government's fault for not getting them a job.

They are not competing - they have lost the battle. When you have a Polish bus driver with a degree in physics like the one I spoke to last week you can see that our youth cannot compete. It's not a level playing field. They can't get training even if they wanted to because many company's training budgets have dried up. Try getting GCSE or A levels in FE around here - impossible, because they've sacked all the GCSE and GCE tutors and replaced them with tutors teaching Beauty Therapy. When Blair banged on about 'Education, education. education' I didn't realise he wanted more trainined aromatherapists.

No, this country is fucked. Proper fucked. You people can sneer at Nigel wanting to get back to the 1950s but it's preferable to sleep-walking into an EU superstate as we are currently doing.

It seems to me that those people who support the EU are those who have very little confidence in this country and its people. I find that very sad.

OP posts:
claig · 03/04/2014 17:18

'No, this country is fucked.'

It's not fucked. They've been trying to fuck it, but they will fail.

The result of the poll with a stonking win for Farage over the Establishment's darling, Cleggy, shows it. People are not stupid, they are awake. And it is the same all over Europe.

Look at what is happening, look at Ukraine, look at what is happening in Europe. Understand it, don't fall for the spin. Then get out and vote and make your voice heard. That is what millions of people will do all across Europe in May in order to get out of the mess.

Farage said

"Join the people's army, let's topple the Establishment who got us into this mess"

FiscalCliffRocksThisTown · 03/04/2014 17:22

There are massive problems with the European Union as a concept.

Free movement of goods and workers (the beginning of the EU) was a great concept, and still is. The idea being that workers and goods can go where economic growth is. It is how I came to the UK in the 90s, I had a skill that was in short supply in the UK so I got a job here with no paperwork or red tape to be gotten through. When the economy and my job area changed, I moved to another country.

Free movement of goods and workers is a good thing, and I don't think people in the UK have a problem with immigrants who come here to work.

A massive problem with the EU is that it is NOT democratic. The laws are created by the European Council (members are appointed, not democratically elected!) and the European parliament only has an advisory role.

If there is a clash with a national (say british) law and a European law, the European law takes precedence.

Essentially, the more involved in Europe a country is, the more autonomy and democracy it loses.

You will be ruled by fat cat bureaucrats, who cannot be voted out, as you never even voted them in.

I think the fact that so many British people resist this idea strongly is great, as the EU is far from perfect.

Even as an immigrant I can see that Farage has some valid points, and politicians need to explain the whole EU thing to the public (essentially, we give up autonomy and gain, possibly, economic growth and stability. Thought the last argument is hard to press home after Greece and Spain disasters...)

TheHammaconda · 03/04/2014 18:49

Farage's biggest problems with EU membership seem to stem from the amount of legislation coming from Brussels, the cost of membership and immigration.

He seems keen on membership of the European Economic Area. What I don't understand is how this would help reduce the amount of legislation or immigrants.

People living in EEA member states have the same four freedoms as those living in EU nations. Someone from Lichtenstein is just as free to come and live and work in the UK as someone from Lithuania.

EEA nations also have to agree to enact EU legislation but have a lesser say in the passage of legislation.

IIRC, EEA member states also make financial contributions to some sort of social fund.

How would joining the EEA actually reduce immigration or the amount of European legislation adopted in Parliament?

TheHammaconda · 03/04/2014 18:58

It's not a social fund (that makes it sound like some sort of kitty for a piss-up). It's a system of grants to support bilateral cooperation between poor southern and central European countries and Lichtenstein, Iceland & Norway.

Factsheet

claig · 03/04/2014 19:04

Farage would probably want to make some sort of deal on immigration similar to what the Swiss people recently voted for. He mentioned the Swiss vote as an example, but Dimbleby cut him off so he couldn't expand on that point.

He would probably want to negotiate a trade deal which may not be exactly what the EEA offers, I don't know. Maybe he would allow us to have our old safe lightbulbs back and give us a choice if we wanted the old, safe ones or teh new, green ones.

He mentioned that Norway and Switzerland pay a contribution, but seemed to imply that they did so for the sake of not arguing about it.

The UK is a huge market for Europe. I am sure that Farage would negotiate a deal that allowed controls on immigration and prevented free movement of Labour.

Farage is against political union and common foreign policy etc
Basically, my impression is he wants a free market for goods, but not much else.

TheHammaconda · 03/04/2014 19:46

Switzerland aren't a member of the EEA. Is he saying UKIP wants us to be outside the EEA or inside? This is what frustrates me. Either they've not thought it through or they're not being honest with voters.

claig · 03/04/2014 19:50

I don't know. I'm not an expert on it and I haven't seen their manifesto.

But they have some clever people who have been at it for about 20 years, so I expect they have thought it through, but I don't know.