Clegg v Farage Round 2

[WetAugust]

Roll up for Part 2!

[Chacha23]

claig, have you tried reading on the topic from sources other than the Daily Mail? they are notorious for their facts-twisting and lack of professionalism, not just on this topic.

[claig]

And what type of employers employ people "with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications"?

Is it the farms and businesses who can get cheap labour to work in unsanitary conditions under the control of brutal gangmasters so that the cost of their produce can be kept artificially low and the level of their profits can be kept artificially high?

An abundance of low-skilled workers without many prospects allows employers to compress wages and maximise profits.

New Labour and their business buddies may have wanted that, but workers and the unemployed need to be protecetd from a race to the bottom.



"Danielius adds: ‘At those moments, you are trying to think about all the good things that used to happen to you in life; about home and how you could possibly change your life again.

‘But without knowing the English language, without friends or money — where do you go?

‘None of us was making money there. We were punished for every little thing, for no reason. Many of us even ended up in debt. We had no hope at all.

//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2533576/Britains-new-slaves-To-millions-migrants-streets-paved-gold-But-awaits-savage-exploitation-gangmasters-lands.html

[claig]

I agree that some jobs are less attractive than others.

'My daughter applied for a job recently at a local care home to do laundry & kitchen work.

...

They'd had 0 applicants.'

Was it a permanent job? Was it an apprenticeship paying less than minimum wage? Did they have no applications from hardworking immigrants either?


'My wife works for a company that specialises in providing care workers and support workers. They are crying out for people who can work.'

Do they require experience or can unskilled people do those jobs? Are immigrants applying for these unfilled jobs?

'Immigrants come over here with nothing but a desire to work damn hard and get on in life. They arrive with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications. Yet somehow they seem to always find jobs that so many of our citizens claim do not exist.'

You say that some of these people "arrive with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications" and yet they always find jobs etc.

How come our employers say that British workers lack the necessary skills and employ people "with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications"?

Do these people have references?

I think there are far too many hoops to jump through to get even the lowest level jobs and I wonder if the agencies who place people with "with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications" apply the same checks and hoops

Lots of people are out of work but do have qualifications and they are often not employed by employers because the employers think they are over-qualified for the jobs and won't stay in those jobs, but will leave as soon as they find something better. Those employers may prefer people "with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications" because they will be less likely to leave those jobs.

Jobs which offer good wages, prospects and career paths will attract applicants.

[Linguini]

nice guy 2 I don't see how you can refer to mass immigration as a net benefit, if you live in an area that is actually effected. You obviously don't.
In effected working class areas 25% of Children at school are speaking English as their FIRST language, the remaining 3/4s are learning basic English, no space for social development skills/basic reading/writing, the whole generation is held back.
Working class areas suffer from segregation, families sticking to themselves, the concept of 'community' has vanished, so on...
As for employment, I'm sorry but immigration keeps wages down you can't deny that, because bringing in qualified people increases the number of applicants / demand therefore lowering wage.

The problem with politics is that there is no party that speaks for the working class or trade unions since Labour turned into 'New Labour' (Basically another Tory party)

UKIP are the ONLY party speaking for these people who are effected. No wonder they are popular.

[niceguy2]

This is all bullshit. Capitalist propaganda by employers who want a cheap Labour pool.

It's not all bullshit at all. Yes people queue for hours to work for a supermarket because that is seemingly the minimum that many will consider good enough for them.

My daughter applied for a job recently at a local care home to do laundry & kitchen work. They called her back the next day and were just as gutted as she was that they couldn't hire her until she's 18 in 6 months time. They'd had 0 applicants.

My wife works for a company that specialises in providing care workers and support workers. They are crying out for people who can work. There's too many people who only apply to get the job centre off their back but don't really want the work. Or can only work between the hours of 10-2pm but not on Mondays, Tues, Wednesdays and Fridays. Oh and every other Thursday could be a bit hard too........

Immigrants come over here with nothing but a desire to work damn hard and get on in life. They arrive with little/no language skills and no recognised qualifications. Yet somehow they seem to always find jobs that so many of our citizens claim do not exist. They then study damn hard in a foreign language (to them), get qualified and in time move on to get better jobs. Then somehow they're job stealers who should move back to their own countries.

Immigration has been blamed for long enough for all our 'woes'. Back when I was a kid it was the Pakistanis & Indians who were the ones who were stealing all the jobs. Now it's the Eastern Europeans.

I also remember back in the boom years that we still had millions of people who couldn't find jobs and were still moaning that there were no jobs.

My point is that immigration has been of a net benefit to the country but all we ever talk about are the negatives. The positives are generally that immigrants come over, work and pay taxes which in turn helps our economy and ultimately create more jobs.

[WetAugust]

Isn't there some little known process whereby if a certain number petition for it, a Parish Council has to hold a referendum. I seem to remember that at least one such vote was held about whether or not we should ratify the Lisbon Treaty.

I'll have a google.

[claig]

'If only we could have Swiss-style direct democracy'

Absolutely. Our chums would never allow us to have it.

But I think we might one day get it with UKIP. UKIP want referenda on any issue that receives 5% public support.

[TheHammaconda]

If only we could have Swiss-style direct democracy

[WetAugust]

Freely available if we could all put our X in the right place

[claig]

Sounds great

[WetAugust]

Yes, EU-lite. All the benefits of free trade without constricting, undemocratic political union.

[TheHammaconda]

Thanks WetAugust, so more like Switzerland less like Iceland.

[WetAugust]

Claig - EEA is the European Economic Area which is EFTA + the EU.

[WetAugust]

Farage's biggest problems with EU membership seem to stem from the amount of legislation coming from Brussels, the cost of membership and immigration.

Actually, Farage's 'problem' with the EU is its democratic deficit and its drive towards "ever closer political union". The legisalation, cost of membership and the right of EU citizens to live in any of the EU's memberships are issue that derive from the aspiration of the EU for all its memberships to be one political entitly. That is anathema to UKIP.

He seems keen on membership of the European Economic Area. What I don't understand is how this would help reduce the amount of legislation or immigrants.

Farage does not want the UK to join the EEA. He wants us to join EFTA - the European Free Trade Association that was actually set up decades ago by Norway and Switzerland - both non-EU members. There is no suggestion that we will share residency rights with these countries via EFTA. EFTA membership is purely for free trade - you know, that lie that they told us the EU was all about when they sold it as the 'Common Market'.

[claig]

If you are saying that the EEA requires an open door immigration policy, then I presume they are not in favour of being in the EEA because they want controlled immigration.

[claig]

I don't know. I'm not an expert on it and I haven't seen their manifesto.

But they have some clever people who have been at it for about 20 years, so I expect they have thought it through, but I don't know.

[TheHammaconda]

Switzerland aren't a member of the EEA. Is he saying UKIP wants us to be outside the EEA or inside? This is what frustrates me. Either they've not thought it through or they're not being honest with voters.

[claig]

Farage would probably want to make some sort of deal on immigration similar to what the Swiss people recently voted for. He mentioned the Swiss vote as an example, but Dimbleby cut him off so he couldn't expand on that point.

He would probably want to negotiate a trade deal which may not be exactly what the EEA offers, I don't know. Maybe he would allow us to have our old safe lightbulbs back and give us a choice if we wanted the old, safe ones or teh new, green ones.

He mentioned that Norway and Switzerland pay a contribution, but seemed to imply that they did so for the sake of not arguing about it.

The UK is a huge market for Europe. I am sure that Farage would negotiate a deal that allowed controls on immigration and prevented free movement of Labour.

Farage is against political union and common foreign policy etc
Basically, my impression is he wants a free market for goods, but not much else.

[TheHammaconda]

It's not a social fund (that makes it sound like some sort of kitty for a piss-up). It's a system of grants to support bilateral cooperation between poor southern and central European countries and Lichtenstein, Iceland & Norway.

Factsheet

[TheHammaconda]

Farage's biggest problems with EU membership seem to stem from the amount of legislation coming from Brussels, the cost of membership and immigration.

He seems keen on membership of the European Economic Area. What I don't understand is how this would help reduce the amount of legislation or immigrants.

People living in EEA member states have the same four freedoms as those living in EU nations. Someone from Lichtenstein is just as free to come and live and work in the UK as someone from Lithuania.

EEA nations also have to agree to enact EU legislation but have a lesser say in the passage of legislation.

IIRC, EEA member states also make financial contributions to some sort of social fund.

How would joining the EEA actually reduce immigration or the amount of European legislation adopted in Parliament?

[FiscalCliffRocksThisTown]

There are massive problems with the European Union as a concept.

Free movement of goods and workers (the beginning of the EU) was a great concept, and still is. The idea being that workers and goods can go where economic growth is. It is how I came to the UK in the 90s, I had a skill that was in short supply in the UK so I got a job here with no paperwork or red tape to be gotten through. When the economy and my job area changed, I moved to another country.

Free movement of goods and workers is a good thing, and I don't think people in the UK have a problem with immigrants who come here to work.

A massive problem with the EU is that it is NOT democratic. The laws are created by the European Council (members are appointed, not democratically elected!) and the European parliament only has an advisory role.

If there is a clash with a national (say british) law and a European law, the European law takes precedence.

Essentially, the more involved in Europe a country is, the more autonomy and democracy it loses.

You will be ruled by fat cat bureaucrats, who cannot be voted out, as you never even voted them in.

I think the fact that so many British people resist this idea strongly is great, as the EU is far from perfect.

Even as an immigrant I can see that Farage has some valid points, and politicians need to explain the whole EU thing to the public (essentially, we give up autonomy and gain, possibly, economic growth and stability. Thought the last argument is hard to press home after Greece and Spain disasters...)

[claig]

'No, this country is fucked.'

It's not fucked. They've been trying to fuck it, but they will fail.

The result of the poll with a stonking win for Farage over the Establishment's darling, Cleggy, shows it. People are not stupid, they are awake. And it is the same all over Europe.

Look at what is happening, look at Ukraine, look at what is happening in Europe. Understand it, don't fall for the spin. Then get out and vote and make your voice heard. That is what millions of people will do all across Europe in May in order to get out of the mess.

Farage said

"Join the people's army, let's topple the Establishment who got us into this mess"

[WetAugust]

You see this is my main point about whipping up fear about immigration. You assume that the reason these people are on benefits is because of immigrants coming and taking the jobs they'd have otherwise done.

Tell me Niceguy why you have totally ignored the context in which I set this i.e. that thise people 'languishing on benefits' would have had the hope of being trained by future employeres but this is no longer happening as employers can import an already trained workforce.

I am really disappointed that you chose to take a small part of my post out of context and twist it.

It's not whipping up fear - you're the one that's doing that by trying to make UKIP an anti-immigration party, which it is not. It's a fact. that we have one of the highest ever levels of youth unemployment as many of the jobs they could have hoped to get require skills that employers are finding elsewhere. That's not rascist that is fact.

And as long as we remain in the EU there is absolutely nothing that any party can do to prevent that.

My son is one of theose languishing on benefits , after 5 years of HE in a highly trained profession, as every one of the tens of jobs he has applied for wants 'experience' and he can't get the experience even though he has applied to potential employers to work for free to gain that experience.

As someone with decades of experience in the defence industry collaboration in capability acquisition is a nightmare.

But there are many other factors such as the fact our benefits system actively traps people into staying on benefits.

Yes, the last Lqbour governemnet preferred to keep people on benefits while actively encouraging immigration - they admitted it.

^
Too many of our 'home grown' citizen's don't value hard work anymore. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. Immigrants have filled those positions because our citizens think they're too good for those sorts of jobs^

That's rubbish. No one could work for the wages these gang masters pay - which in some cases are below the minium wage. But if you come from one of eastern European countries even those wages are many times what you could expect to get in your own country. Plus, your living expenses are minimal as you share housing with fellow workers and send your wages back to your familes in your home country - who can also calim Family Allowance as you're working in the UK so entitled to claim it. And that's good for the UK ecomony? I don't think so.
We gave up trying to make people work years ago.

How many of our citizens have left school with fuck all qualifications. Trying to compete for jobs increasingly complex and requiring much more skills than they have? Of course they don't think that it's THEIR responsibility that they aren't suitably qualified but that it's the government's fault for not getting them a job.

They are not competing - they have lost the battle. When you have a Polish bus driver with a degree in physics like the one I spoke to last week you can see that our youth cannot compete. It's not a level playing field. They can't get training even if they wanted to because many company's training budgets have dried up. Try getting GCSE or A levels in FE around here - impossible, because they've sacked all the GCSE and GCE tutors and replaced them with tutors teaching Beauty Therapy. When Blair banged on about 'Education, education. education' I didn't realise he wanted more trainined aromatherapists.

No, this country is fucked. Proper fucked. You people can sneer at Nigel wanting to get back to the 1950s but it's preferable to sleep-walking into an EU superstate as we are currently doing.

It seems to me that those people who support the EU are those who have very little confidence in this country and its people. I find that very sad.

[claig]

Why do you think Tony Benn and Bob Crowe were against the EU?

It is the capitalists' paradise, big business heaven, where an endless workforce can be supplied with total free movement of labour and capital.

And then they tell us that our people are lazy and not prepared to work and haven't got the skills. They are lying, just as they lie about everything else - climate catastrophe, how many of our laws come from Europe and how much they claim in expenses.

[claig]

We've got people on zero-hours contracts, we've got thousands queueing for jobs, and we've got an open door immigration policy.

It is a disgrace.

Cleggy is alright. He's on a large salary and even if the publi boot him out of his seat, I'm sure he'll become a Lord or a chum in Europe somewhere.

But milions of people are not alright and face a miserable future, and the EU and its stagnating markets and crippling Euro and open door immigration policies are all contributing to the disaster for ordinary people.

Farage knows that and says it and he says it because he cares about us and all European peoples too, just as he cares when he tells us about Syria nd Ukraine too.

He is not a spinner, he's not a chum, he didn't go to the "College of Europe", he didn't even go to Oxbridge, like the chums did.

That is why he cares and sees and understands what is happening and warns us where it will lead.