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Politics

No 10: cap child benefit to 2 children

77 replies

longfingernails · 15/12/2013 08:37

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523819/No-10s-plan-cap-benefit-children-New-mothers-children-lose-700-5bn-welfare-crackdown.html

Great idea.

OP posts:
JakeBullet · 15/12/2013 12:02

But surely the important thing is the reasoning behind this.

If it's to cope with the deficit and a need to save money then okay. If it's because the Government think it will stop people having children they cannot afford then its at best misguided because that will not change.

It wont affect me.....I only have one child but I pity the NMW folk working all the hours going while needing their meagre wages topped up with tax credits because the pay is so shit.

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat · 15/12/2013 12:06

I think it's a good idea. A lot of people who get it don't need it and could manage perfectly well without it. We could have done.

People on low incomes should be able to get extra cash via the tax system or other benefits.

I'm not a fan of universal benefits.

I also think, for the planet's sake, it's good to encourage people to limit the number of children they have.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 12:11

I can't see blended families being exempt btw. Why would they be?

DoctorTwoTurtleDoves · 15/12/2013 12:23

I see that this is being proposed by the very same MP who claimed parliamentary expenses to heat his stables. And tried to claim for a mansion in his constituency.

No double standards here, no sirree.

QuintessentialShadows · 15/12/2013 12:24

"Am happy to be classified as "ideological" by saying that I don't wish the feckless/unable to breed with impunity. If you need CB, you can't afford your children."

I think there is some truth in this.

"People are in support of only the rich being allowed to "breed with impunity".

If they dont need benefits, can pay for their children and support them through working and paying taxes, why not?

However, I still think it is good to put a cap on children born per couple, as we are fast overpopulating the planet anyway. It is putting pressure on the NHS, Education, etc. Problem is, are there enough people to care for us when we are old?

Personally, I would love to be able to have a third child and let the government and tax payers pick up the bill. Wink We've had to stop at two, why should not people on benefits who are unable to afford having more children not have to also consider the costs and let whether to have more children or not be a financial decision rather than one based on their wants?

Bowlersarm · 15/12/2013 12:28

Good idea.

Quint has made perfect sense.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 12:34

Quint if you think "it is good to put a cap on children born per couple, as we are fast overpopulating the planet anyway" Then why do you not think it a good idea for rich people to also limit family size? Surely that would be good too?

QuintessentialShadows · 15/12/2013 12:47

Back - I am qualifying my view below. In theory, why should they not breed if they can support themselves, BUT ideologically as the population is growing we should ALL put a cap on amount of children per couple.

So, a cap for everybody.

SoonToBeSix · 15/12/2013 12:54

Yes great idea op for children to grow up in poverty Biscuit

whereisshe · 15/12/2013 13:11

Interesting. It's clearly ideological rather than driven by cost-cutting. Quote from IDS's speech : "Can there be not be a limit to the fact you need to cut your cloth in accordance with what capabilities and finances you have?" (in other words, people do different things with their own money vs what they do with free handouts - this is the age-old problem with handouts).

Which, in principle, I'm ok with. Underlying this type of discussion is the principle that "if you earn it, you earn the right to do as you wish within the law. If it isn't earned, the benefactor has a right to exercise control over the use of the money." I think as a principle that's quite sound because nothing should be totally free (reciprocity underpins all human interaction so it's important from a societal cohesion perspective).

The problem comes from the nature and extent of the control exercised, since obviously at one extreme it means total dictatorial control over someone else's life and that's clearly unreasonable because it undermines people's right to exercise free will and lead their own life. But where do you draw the line?

I'm very wary of any state control over reproduction - slippery slope (maybe I'm influenced by reading the Handmaid's Tale recently!). On the other hand I can see how someone who is struggling could spend longer out of the workforce if they had 3, 4, 5 + children, so it does have wider ramifications. And I don't for a moment think children are a "right" - we waited a long time to have kids because we didn't feel financially secure enough and I know we're not the only ones. It's difficult.

Overall, I think this smacks too much of something like China's one child policy (and the state control that implies) for it to be a "good" idea, but I can see where the government is trying to go with it. It's an important debate to have, in any case, because of the principles it implies.

JakeBullet · 15/12/2013 13:14

I still think that this will eventually become fact.

My Auntie who spent nearly all her married life in Switzerland was aghast when she retired back home in the UK at the array of child linked benefits.

None of my Swiss cousins got anythinh wjen they had their children BUT....they all earned enough money (even in less well paid jobs) to feed, clothe and house their families. Employers in Switzerland it seems pay a living wage....unlike in the UK.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/12/2013 13:14

CB or Family Allowance used to be zero for the first child but applied to every child after that. So it was a de facto state encouragement to have more than one child at a time when presumably someone thought the country needed more kids. If the idea is to reduce the population, a cap on the number of children the state will support sort of makes sense.

HappyMummyOfOne · 15/12/2013 13:57

Its nothing like the China one child policy. The state is not capping the number of children people can have but simply saying that if you want more than two it will not fund that choice. Its not putting children into poverty, the parents do that by the decisions they make.

Its sheer madness we pay people for children anyway, we dont need to increase the population. The money could be far better spent elsewhere.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 14:04

Quint Ah, we're in agreement on that point then.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 14:07

Its not putting children into poverty, the parents do that by the decisions they make

If a well off family with 5 kids lose their income what should happen to the extra 3 kids?

jellybeans · 15/12/2013 14:13

This guy claims thousands in expenses for personal use yet wants to deny families a much lower sum to help them raise children? Out of interest do you think he has more than two kids himself?

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 15/12/2013 14:14

But we're not just 'paying people for children', the government is also subsidizing businesses so they can have those workers and pay them low wages to increase their profits.

Minimum wage as a concept was meant to support an entire family with 2-3 kids, now, in many places, it can't even support a single adult without government top-ups even when they're working full time. The focus should be on ensuring a living wage that doesn't require those top-ups BEFORE we start pulling those top-ups away. The system needs to be rebuilt, not simply to takeaway as a lifestyle (and it wasn't designed as lifestyle OR a last resort, but as a minimum standard) but to ensure people can actually support themselves, there are a lot of things we need to fix first.

(Also, ensuring that insurance companies actually pay out on illness/income cover promptly, I've seen it take years with the most pathetic arguments not to pay out while people were at their lowest. It took my MIL ten years, all because a doctor noted that the condition had likely been there for years being masked by another condition and therefore the company ruled it as a pre exisiting condition that she didn't declare. Even the most responsible get burnt in this system as it stands now).

ttosca · 15/12/2013 14:45

So the Tory MP who proposed the two-child cap is Nadhim Zahawi.

This is the man who recently claimed expenses off the state for heating his horse stables.

This is why I think the whole debate about welfare is a sham. In general, the people supporting cuts to social security spending have little problem with the cost of the monarchy, the cost of wars, or the cost of tax avoidance/evasion.

A straw man is set up whereby people who receive social security are 'scroungers' making 'lifestyle' choices, and no facts are used to support this assertion. Even though we know that the majority of people living in poverty are now working families.

And so an ideological crusade is allowed to carry on under the guise of pragmatism, when it has nothing to do with that.

SoonToBeSix · 15/12/2013 14:48

Happy mum it is like the China policy in that families with "extra" children will be denied financial support for them.
Since when did people choose redundancy or contraception failure how are those parents choosing poverty for their children.

Daykin · 15/12/2013 15:02

I'd be interested to see what they do for blended families. If DP and I had 4 kids but could only get CB for two then I would be more than a little hacked off if another woman could get CB for four children with two different dad's. ditto if I had 2 children with DP and then couldn't get CB for either because DP had two older children with another partner. Possibly it would've worked in the 50's.

Damnautocorrect · 15/12/2013 15:09

I don't think its fair to change goalposts all of a sudden, run it out yes but not just full stop, that's when the problems happen.
Of course they won't do that as it won't affect/ help this government but the next

PacifistDingDong · 15/12/2013 15:14

I think capping at any number of children is a terrible idea.

I think CB should be means tested.
We have 4 DCs, we no longer get CB (well, it's taxed 100%) and I don't think we ought to get it.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 15/12/2013 15:37

I think in the real world, some parents do choose poverty for their children. Or at least don't plan for the converse. You've only to look on the Money Board on MN to find the 'I'm pregnant, what benefits can I get?' threads. Despite an NHS offering free contraception, 'baby first, financial planning' later is not uncommon.

ttosca · 15/12/2013 15:56

I think in the real world, some parents do choose poverty for their children.

In the real world, you can always find the exception. You don't base policy on personal anecdotes and conjecture, but on evidence.

Or at least don't plan for the converse. You've only to look on the Money Board on MN to find the 'I'm pregnant, what benefits can I get?' threads.

This does not imply they chose poverty for their children. It would imply that they have had a kid and then chose to get support because they want the best for their kids. It does not imply that they had a kid in order to claim benefits.

Despite an NHS offering free contraception, 'baby first, financial planning' later is not uncommon.

You should be campaigning for a living wage, instead of crapping on families who want to claim in order to make sure their kids are well fed and clothed.

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/12/2013 16:30

Can't wait to see the first catholic told that she should have an abortion because she already has two children.

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