Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

All you poor people are lazy

64 replies

SunWukong · 17/08/2012 16:55

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/17/tories-say-british-workers-lazy_n_1796576.html?1345215460&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

So here is the Tories proving what we all ready know, that are fools who think the poor are that way because they are lazy, unlike them.

OP posts:
adeucalione · 18/08/2012 21:16

Nicholas, do you have a link to figures demonstrating that wages are lower, in real terms, than they were 20 years ago?

ttosca · 18/08/2012 21:52

adeucalione-

Nicholas, do you have a link to figures demonstrating that wages are lower, in real terms, than they were 20 years ago?

Here's one source, concerning the US:

www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wages+and+Benefits%3A+Real+Wages+%281964-2004%29

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics


The situation in the UK may be more complicated, as I can find a few different reports, some showing more or less median wage earnings in real terms. The cost of living has also increased, over the past decades. 'Real' earnings use the inflation to adjust for wages, and there are a few ways of measuring inflation, some of which don't take in to account things like council tax rises and housing costs.

However, what's not disputed is that the percentage of total wage share has shifted massively towards the top richest earners of the course of the past 30 years. So Nicholas is absolutely right that the current system indisputable benefits a tiny minority at the expense of everyone else.

ttosca · 18/08/2012 21:55

I agree that this is wrong, what I was trying to say that those that can work, know the system inside out and have figured out it is not worth working as they are better off on Welfare, that to me is wrong as the system was never designed to be a "life choice"

Uh huh. And what percentage of people on welfare, do you think, are committing fraud?

I started a thread about this. Why don't you have a look. Depending on what type of benefit payment, it could be as low as 0% (according to the government itself). The highest figure is 3.9% for Carers allowance. The fraud rate for Jobseekers Allowance is 3.4%.

There is
no
'culture of entitlement' in the UK. Only a tiny, tiny minority on JSA are committing fraud.

Xenia · 18/08/2012 21:57

NT< then make yourself a rich type. That is the wonderful thing about free market capitalism, if you think smart and work hard you can be that person on the higher sums not that one on the £6.17.

When Lawson reduced tax rates to 20/40 from 60+ rates tax flowed in, people stop lawful avoidance and industry flocks to the country. Instead the jealous poor in the UK woudl rather no one had any money and made none which ultimately there will be no one rich to pay for their benefits and thus they cut off their noses to spite their faces. At least they have been warned.

breadandbutterfly · 18/08/2012 22:30

Actually, Xenia, lots of research has shown it is relative poverty that is harmful not just absolute poverty. Of course it is worse to be starving - but relative poverty ie inequality has been shown to have awful effects on both the psychological and physical well-being of those living in countries such as ours where the inequality you praise has been increasing.

New Scientist ran a whole series of fascinating articles on this a couple of weeks back - I highly recommend them to anyone who hasn't read them. See

www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528753.400-an-appeal-for-fairness-in-society.html

and

www.newscientist.com/special/inequality

Lots and lots of hard data in those articles and other related ones in the same issue for anyone interested in the most recent facts on this.

breadandbutterfly · 18/08/2012 22:32

My point being, in case it was not clear, that the poor did not "cut off their noses to spite their faces" as it is very much in their interests to reduce inequality.

carernotasaint · 18/08/2012 22:41

Just to make it clear i think it is something to be ashamed of that we have to have food banks at all. Its a good job that we do have them because of Governments callous policies but i think the Government should be bloody ashamed that this is what its come to.
I still remember the Mullins case from last year and how they were living like this and ended up commiting suicide.
And yet there are many others like them and certain sections of society who wilfully refuse to see what is going on.

breadandbutterfly · 18/08/2012 22:44

I think on the whole, given that the average British worker has witnessed, over the last few edifying years, MPs with their snouts very firmly in the trough, basically nicking stuff on expenses at our expense, in lavish style; top police receiving huge envelopes of cash to reveal secrets to journalists; top journalists doing anything, anything, no matter how low, to sell stories/get pictures to make some wonga; top bankers repeatedly breaking the law or as near as dammit to fill their boots, etc etc ad infinitum - given I repeat all that we have witnessed, I think the fact that we have any work ethic left at all is quite remarkable.

I think it says a lot for the great British spirit that the average worker has not just aped their 'betters' (hollow laughter) and started nicking stuff as a career. Or selling babies. Or maybe their grandma. Hmm That we still, on the whole, bother to go in, day after day, for a pretty paltry reward, while fares go up, petrol goes up, heating goes up, food goes up, rent goes up, credit cards if you can';t afford to get by after all that,go up... I think british workers deserve a rather massive pat on the back for their stoical and wonderfully British ability to just get on with it and muddle along, without expecting a huge pat on the back, just doing it because it needs to be done.

Of course, there are a few exceptions.

But if you leave the MPs out of the statistics, I think the average British worker has a lot to be proud of. :) Shame the MPs let the side down - suppose it is fair enough it is MPs who have written a book like this - they see this culture of entitlement all round them every day in the House, and imagine their tiny pool reflects the big ocean outside.

wannabedomesticgoddess · 18/08/2012 22:45

Being a "poor type" as opposed to a "rich type" Hmm is a cycle which is extremely hard to break. Poor education and few opportunities hold people in a cycle they cant get out of. Eventually they give up trying.

The governments answer to it paying more on benefits than working is to cut benefits. But the people who genuinely cannot work are getting caught up in this too.

What about making work more attractive instead? A higher NMW, more trainee schemes/apprenticeships. More incentives for employers to train and nurture their staff. A realistic look by the government at the outgoings families are facing rather than branding us all lazy?

There is soooo much this government could do. But they dont want to. They want to keep the poor poor so they can keep getting richer.

TheCrackFox · 18/08/2012 22:54

The govt. should spend less time branding people as lazy and more time sorting the economy out.

SunWukong · 19/08/2012 00:00

"adeucalione Sat 18-Aug-12 20:50:07

Ttosca, the figures show that British workers work about an hour less per week than the EU average, it is only when part time work is removed from the equation completely that we move into third place."

Well hang on you can't go tarring everyone with the same brush when the reality is many PT workers do more then one job (it's easier to get a job if you all ready have one anyway which is stupid).

Besides how are the figures worked out? my contracted hours when I was working was 37.5 but it was all most always 41+ as they constantly "asked" people to do weekends as it would look good when it came to promotion time etc (yeah right).

BFs last job was down as part Time on the contract but he was working more then 30 hours a week most weeks and they refused to give him a full time contract.

OP posts:
Xenia · 19/08/2012 12:03

We need more work in the economy. If every business (and remember more people are employed in businesss with under 6 staff in the UK than any other type!! so businesses like mine etc) were so busy they were taking on new people and hardly able to fill the orders streaming in then there would be funds for more things. There is an article in the Sunday Times today although it does not really conclude as I would want it to, which is interesting:

2Adrian Wooldridge: Stop war on wealth, we need the rich few
The Sunday Times Published: 19 August 2012
Ferdinand Mount and Joseph Stiglitz can hardly be described as soul mates: Mount once ran Margaret Thatcher?s policy unit and Stiglitz is a Nobel prizewinning economist who was an adviser to Bill Clinton and has been moving leftwards ever since. But they have both recently come to similar conclusions about what ails us.

In his book The New Few, Mount argues that an elite has grabbed too much wealth and power. In The Price of Inequality, Stiglitz says widening inequality is fomenting economic bubbles, reducing consumer demand and wreaking havoc.

The revolt against the rich is shaking up politics. Spain and Italy have extended surtaxes on the rich. François Hollande is preparing to impose a 75% tax rate on high earners. Barack Obama is running for re-election as a champion of the 99% against the 1%.

His policies might sound like small beer compared to Hollande?s super-strength lager ? Obama wants to raise the top rate of tax from 35% to nearly 40% and to increase taxes on capital gains and dividends ? but his rich-bashing represents a big change in a country founded on the worship of wealth.

The International Monetary Fund has revised its view that a rising tide lifts all boats and concluded instead that it can produce weak growth. The World Economic Forum has found that its members regard growing inequality and poor governance as the two biggest threats in the next decade.

It is easy to see why people are so worried. In America the top 1% more than doubled their share of national after-tax income from 8% in 1979 to 17% in 2007, while the bottom 80% saw their share decline. The much-vaunted American middle class is shrinking, while the poor are falling further behind. Even egalitarian countries such as Sweden and Japan have been moving in the same direction.

Can anything be done about growing inequality? It is one thing to reduce inequality if it is based on cronyism and connections, but it is quite another to reduce it if it is based on open competition. Ronald Reagan once quipped that Lyndon Johnson declared war on poverty and poverty won. The coming war on wealth will be equally one-sided.

The biggest problem for egalitarians is that people differ as much in their mental abilities as they do in their athletic ones. This hardly mattered for most of human history because land and connections were more important than brains and knowledge. But as society passed from industrial to post-industrial, brains mattered ever more.

Today a single genius can spark a corporate renaissance. When Steve Jobs left Apple in 1985 and went on to found Pixar, Apple almost collapsed and Pixar took off. When Jobs returned to Apple in 1996 he inaugurated the age of the iPhone and iPad. Geniuses can mean the difference between success and failure. Bill Gates says that ?if it weren?t for 20 key people, Microsoft wouldn?t be the company it is today?.

Cultural inequalities powerfully reinforce natural inequalities. Bright people congregate together in regions such as southern England or the northeastern United States. They frequently end up marrying each other.

American psychologists calculate that by the time they reach the age of four, the children of professional parents have heard 45m words addressed to them compared with 26m for the children of working-class parents and 13m for the children of parents on welfare. And that?s before they start after-school activities and extra tuition.

The consequences of intellectual inequality are magnified by the two most powerful economic developments of our time ? globalisation and technological innovation. Globalisation vastly increases the rewards for the successful. Computers are hollowing out mid-level jobs in much the same way that machines once hollowed out manufacturing jobs. David Autor, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, points out that job growth is concentrated at the top and the bottom of the skills curve. For elite brain workers, computers are tools that enhance their productivity. For service workers they are irrelevancies. For clerical workers they are redundancy notices.

In a fascinating new book, Human Capitalism, Brink Lindsey suggests that the problem of inequality is even more intractable than the pessimists had thought. He argues that the leitmotif of the post-industrial economy is growing complexity: there is more knowledge to acquire, there are more institutions to deal with and more choices to make. Success increasingly depends on your ability to master complexity, which in turn depends on your ability to master abstraction: to see how particular bits of information fit into abstract patterns and to think through the long-term consequences of your actions.

Subcultures differ in their ability to master abstraction: to put it brutally, people at the bottom are more likely to inhabit a world of concrete events and immediate satisfactions. The result is that educated people are pulling further ahead of less educated people in their private lives as well as their careers.

The weapons that policy-makers have at their disposal look feeble in comparison with these forces. The most obvious weapon is taxation. Why not increase taxes on the rich to counterbalance the fact that able people are getting better rewarded for their abilities? The problem is that talented people are mobile. London, New York and Singapore will happily roll out the carpet for tax refugees. These mobile people are the world?s most important job creators ? they produce the ideas and organisations that create high-quality jobs.

Another weapon is the welfare state. Why not use the machines of public education and welfare to reduce inequality? There are two problems: the first is that middle-class people have always proved to be much better at squeezing resources out of the state than working-class people. They not only monopolise the best jobs in the public sector, they also get more than their fair share of government-provided healthcare and education.

The second problem is that the state is wedded to many enlightened policies that end up increasing inequality. The state is rightly committed to abolishing discrimination against women. But this will only increase the formation of power couples as more women become successful and marry successful men.

Should we give up and watch as the world divides into PhD-ville and Asbo-land? Far from it. There is plenty that we can do provided we are willing to focus on manageable problems. We need to combat the influence of cronyism and connection. That means making markets more open and competitive and intervening at the first sniff of collusion. We need to focus on preventing poor people sinking into a life of crime and dysfunction. Iain Duncan Smith, the British work and pensions secretary, has made an impressive start by emphasising the moral as well as the practical importance of having a job.

The British coalition could make the legal system more comprehensible ? Hawaii is enjoying success with a programme that rapidly sends people to prison for a few days if they violate their parole. Crucially we need to build a ladder of opportunity from the tenements to the ivory towers.

That said, it would be foolish to resurrect a discredited idea from the 1970s and pursue equality of results rather than equality of opportunity. The key to success in a post-industrial economy lies in making the best use of your brain power and the key to that lies in providing talented people with the right incentives to cultivate their talents and put them to productive use. More often than not the new few are also the vital few ? and the price of inequality is a price worth paying.

Adrian Wooldridge is the management editor and Schumpeter columnist of The Economist. "

creighton · 20/08/2012 13:44

how can british workers be lazy when we have one of the largest economies in the world and we are paying for europe, giving aid to countries in need? how do lazy people manage this?

domesticgodless · 20/08/2012 13:57

Xenia, I am by normal standards a clever person (Oxbridge, PhD blah blah) who decided to take a pay CUT to work in the public sector. I am not poor now (although my living standards are going down year by year) but will certainly never be rich. There are many others like me out there.

I expect that you would now claim that I am 'not using my brain power' to its best extent. This is nonsense. My job in banking was simple and boring. I earned 3/4 times what I do now, but it surely wasn't worth it. I certainly didn't meet a bunch of geniuses there; in fact since working in universities the average IQ of my colleagues appears to have doubled.

Your simplistic right-wing theories of trickledown (sheer nonsense- it's now clear that the richer people get the LESS tax they pay- heard about the £13 trillion sitting in offshore accounts?) and self-serving ideas about the superiority of the rich (flattering to yourself, no doubt) are not the answer. Your flat-tax ideas are sheer lunacy, and if Boris Johnson backs them I hope to God he is kept out of national government for as long as possible.

Working poverty is a disgrace. That is what you are preaching. You know perfectly well that entrepreneurial success is for the rare few (thus you see yourself as one of those rare 'geniuses', I suspect). What you are advocating is the US model in which the poverty stricken masses strive endlessly for the 'American dream' of self-made wealth, while the wealthy exploit them shamelessly. Not a world most of us would want to live in.

domesticgodless · 20/08/2012 14:03

'Subcultures differ in their ability to master abstraction: to put it brutally, people at the bottom are more likely to inhabit a world of concrete events and immediate satisfactions. The result is that educated people are pulling further ahead of less educated people in their private lives as well as their careers.'

This is interesting and depressing. I see in my own teaching how hard it is for people from lower-income backgrounds who have not been encouraged to read and think in abstract terms to master these skills later in life.

The only answer is to improve education for all. Which involves public spending. Get rid of the useless ranking, obsessive measuring and 'customer-service' BS which currently dominates education at secondary and increasingly university level and actually TEACH.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 20/08/2012 14:42

absolutely right regarding the immediate gratification rather than the deferred gratification - this is the real dividing line in what used to be 'class' ie the 'workng class' subsisted from week-to-week wage packets, spending immedately any surplus of what they earned over theor needs, the 'middle classes' deferred gratification to save for pensions, take out mortgages etc, and the 'upper' classes were custodians for future generations of the family wearign threadbare jumpers to keep the family pile. Only in recent years with thh welfare state has a fourth 'class' been viable - ie the waged-not-working, where the gratification expectancy is even more rapid than that of the old 'working class'

domesticgodless · 20/08/2012 15:07

there is not much 'gratification' to be had on £71 a week. And on the minimum wage/benefit level, which I have never lived on, I expect that just getting through life would take priority over planning to do anything much more than survive.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 20/08/2012 15:12

one example form a recent thread, is a mother who ran out of nappies and baby milk and asked her neighbour for some, request was refused. The neighbour pointed out that the woman asking for a handout was a smoker. In other words, at some point she chose to buy cigs, for instant gratification, rather than budegeting for nappies, which she could have predicted would definitley be needed later.

ColouringIn · 20/08/2012 15:18

I accept that point MrsGuy except the poor baby the. Had nothing to eat. The fault of the parent definitely but am assuming she would have paid any loan back it was a tad judgemental.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 20/08/2012 15:21

am not commenting on the judgement of the neighbour (if it was a real anecdote being recounted, not sure if I actually believed it), just the fact of the deferred/non-deferred gratification, and yes the poor baby suffers if the parent has that mindset - the baby of a parent who can defer gratification will be immeasurably better off, however poor the family.

domesticgodless · 20/08/2012 15:28

I have to say that some people's choices do amaze me. However, I believe we should suspend the moralising judgements we inflict on the poor so often until we know and have been in that position. I have been very depressed myself and behaved in ways that were damaging to my own health and wealth, but I was 'cushioned' from lasting damage due to being middle-class and well-educated. I very much dislike the attitude that we should monitor every penny the poor spend. IMHO it's a workhouse mentality: the 'undeserving poor' and presumably their children are to be left to starve, it seems.

MoreBeta · 20/08/2012 15:31

British workers are not lazy. Lets get that straight.

There are many people on low income minimum wage who would be better off on benefits and many people on benefits who would like a job but can't afford to work.

There are a few people who cheat the benefits system.

One solution would be to remove all tax and national insurance on wages below £10k per year. That would make it worthwhile working for many people.

I voted Tory at the last election and am disgusted at how this Govt operates and some/many of the things it is doing and saying. The opposition is no better.

There are some excellent MPs but far too many MPs have never worked and have no clue how the real world works.

domesticgodless · 20/08/2012 15:32

MoreBEta, excellent idea re the removal of tax under £10k. With the way prices are rising this seems only humane.

MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 20/08/2012 16:00

The problem with that is that you then create a cliff-edge at £10k, and people start saying not worth their while to work more hours because of the marginal rate of tax just above £10k being exorbitant...

LapsedPacifist · 20/08/2012 16:04

There are some excellent MPs but far too many MPs have never worked and have no clue how the real world works.

This is what terrifies me. So many MPs their families and their entire peer group (mostly Tory, but an increasing number of Labour MPS as well) will NEVER use the public services and public sector infrastructure that the vast majority of us depend on, such as the NHS, state schools, public transport, public libraries, local post offices, Council-run leisure facilities (such as swimming pools, gyms, sports clubs for youngsters) and no-one else within their orbit does either.
They don't know anyone who is 50+ and long-term unemployed following redundancy (I know at least half-a dozen) because all their jobs are obtained through the Old Boy network.

They ALL have private health care, use private schools and gyms, and drive (or are driven) everywhere. They can buy books instead of borrowing them and have internet acess at home.

How many of them have to battle with an inefficient underfunded Inland Revenue, CSA or Benefits Agency themselves, rather than pay others (accountants, lawyers) to sort out their financial and legal affairs? Or need public transport to get to a local Post Office to cash their pensions or giros?