Why is the middle east *such* a mess?

[Arana]

I hope I'm a reasonably intelligent person, and I understand the middle east is a very complicated place historically, but it seems like the absolute chaos that has been going on for centuries is greater than the sum of its parts.

If it's not Israel, it's Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon and it just seems to be spreading to places like eastern Turkey, Sudan, Libya.

Are there big issues I'm missing other than religious conflict, oil, tribal/indigenous conflict, ex-colonialism?

It's got to the point where I can't bring myself to think about it, because I can barely rationalise any of it. Just when I think it can't get any worse, any more de-humanised, along comes another massacre for another reason, by another group.

The only issue you are missing is the fact the media spotlights Islamic countries, unfortunately there are many places in the world that are full of fighting and have been for years that the media doesn't report on.

Let us not forget that we had such things on our own doorstep in places like Northern Ireland and Eastern Europe not that long ago, crap can happen at any time in any place look at the History of Europe and it's wars with each other.

Israel does have a lot to answer for tho, but sadly they never will due to the involvement of the USA, if anyone else had illegal nukes, stole land from over the boarder, broke that many UN resolutions etc there would be hell to pay but sadly Israel gets a free ride. and until that changes they will all ways be a bone of contention.

First is the big fly in the ointment i.e. Israel and Palestine, with entrenched enmity & ancient territorial claims which force neighbouring nations to take sides. And since the USA always sides with Israel, that means anyone anti-Israel sees USA and its allies as targets. Second, I'd say is the prevalence of dicatorial regimes and an absence of democracy, usually causing rifts among tribal or religious lines. Means that even if they are not taking pot-shots at each other, there is regular civil violence internally. The presence of oil means huge outside interests with more at stake than other parts of the world so local spats quickly go global. Instead of Syrian/Egyptian/Libyan dictator vs the people it becomes 'The West' arranged on one side and Russians etc. shipping arms to the other.

The Israel Palestine situation could be peacefully resolved tomorrow and that wouldn't be the end of the story

cogito, rather ironic that you claim both that Israel is the problem and yet also claim that the prevalence of dictatorial regimes is the problem - ignoring the fact that Israel is the only longstanding democracy in the region.

As Ryoko says, the region is no better or worse than most but feature more on the news because we like to fret about the future price of oil and America likes to get involved in supporting dictators in the region for the same reasons.

Ryoko, Israel certainly does not get a 'free ride' - hence the number of anti-Israel UN resolutions you mention! Numerous other countries with far worse human rights records get ignored because they're not equivalently trendy - look at what Syria is still getting away with to its own people before criticising Israel. Or is it fine if you massacre your own people in the thousands? Just not if you respond to your neighbours trying to kill you?

I want to hear how the Isreal/Palastine conflict can be peacefully tomorrow. Please enlighten the world me.

If anyone knew that, think it might have been sorted a while ago?

That's what I thought but I wait with baited breath to hear Cogito's solution.

"The Israel Palestine situation could be peacefully resolved tomorrow" was a hypothesis, not a prediction or a claim to know the answer. I'm making the point that the situation often gets dumbed down to 'if only we could resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict there would be no more trouble' and it isn't the case. I'm not ignoring the fact that Israel is a democracy either. If all the countries of the ME were fully-functioning democracies, peace would not suddenly break out. You've only to look at Afghanistan, Iraq and now Egypt to see that sectarianism/tribalism runs deep and the old guard don't disappear just because they get voted out.

Ok sorry I misunderstood what you were getting at. Just looked back and it was my fault for skim reading.

It's just that I have heard people make that sort of claim before so I jumped the gun. Sorry again.

They do get a free ride, no matter what they do building settlements on disputed lands, killing people and treating people like second class citizens.

They still get away with having illegal nuclear weapons, get weapons from the USA and 3 billion a year plus cash from us and other nations.

It's no wonder they where not affected by the world recession they are propped up by hand outs of other peoples money without those tax payers ever getting a say in the matter.

Too much bollocks to bother arguing with. Enjoy your prejudices, Ryoko.

In the 1920's the colonial powers (particularly the UK) deliberately drew the boundaries so they cut through the middle of ethnic areas - particularly the uppity Kurds. Oil had just been found and the spoils were to be exploited by the Western companies.
The founding of Israel was very convenient for the western powers as it kept the infighting up and cooperation down.

But in the long run it comes down to the Middle East being the birthplace of the three great monotheistic religions, many of whose adherents are intolerant nutters and they share the same religious sites (and stories).

It will settle down when the oil money runs out - in about another 40 years.

it seems like the absolute chaos that has been going on for centuries

is "centuries" a fair representation? It was a very poor part of the world until oil was discovered, and fairly stable within most of that long-term poverty, for most of the Ottoman Empire (last 5 centuries). I know there are pockets of trouble spots in time & space, but then look how much violence there was in parts of Europe at times in last 200yrs.

Ryoko you're insane to believe such imbalanced tripe

You could argue that Iraq, Libya and Egypt were relatively stable up until recently. The point being that it's an artificial stability, rather like the one that kept the various communities of the Balkans from ripping each others heads off when Tito took the reins. A stability borne out of fear of either an internal oppressor or a bigger, nastier oppressor next-door, rather than a genuine desire to live alongside. The minute there's any change in the dynamic the response is violent uprising and settling of old scores... never a peaceful transition. As Irish sectarianism demonstrates with its fondness for recalling grievances from the distant past, 'centuries' is not an exaggeration.

Yeah? you gonna tell me they don't get a tonne of cash every year to prop then up and tonnes of weapons?.

The facts speak for themselves they would would a third world nation with nothing if it wasn't for the zionist lobbiest no questions asked support of the west.

and my family are Jewish in blood I can trace by ancestry back a 500 years, wrongs against the Jewish race do no excuse the wrongs Israel commit upon others it all just gives us an increasingly bad name.

I really need to proof read.

To paraphrase Martin Sheen in the West Wing, "it's because it's really hot and there's not enough water"

That's not strictly true Fourth, there are Israelis who are married to Palestinians.

Ryoko, the Israelis get money, as do the Palestinians, you don't really believe they fund their own weapons do you?

It doesn't matter what religion you are, you're still talking nonsense. If the Zionist lobby was so strong why is the media so Palestinian biased? WHy do we hear nothing of the daily atrocities on both sides And the international financial crisis has indeed been felt there

Of course, Ryoko, some of your best friends family members are Jewish, so that proves you can't be at all biased, right?

And of course it just so happens that you believe that the world is dominated by a rather exciting Jewish Zionist conspiracy.

But you're not at all biased, oh no no. Far from it.

OP - Just in case you haven't noticed, the two biggest conflicts in the region arose because the West decided to invade the respective countries.

We are part of the problem.

Two big recent conflicts may have involved western intervention but it's simplistic to claim a straight line cause and effect Just in case anyone forgets, it wasn't exactly milk and honey in the run-up. The Iran Iraq War (1980-88) cost well over 1 million lives. As a knock-on from that war the genocide and persecution of the Kurdish people was still going strong as recently as 2003 when the western invasion effectively finished it. Since then we've had the Arab Spring of uprisings where any involvement of the west has been far more once-removed but thousands have died and are still dying every day in places like Syria. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

the jewish people should never have been given Israel, its not their land and they through out the palastinians.

the prob with the middle east is,

misconstured relisgious ideology (wahabism has f all to do with islam)

and its based on tribal society (obv more likely to fight and have wars)

they need to mae it on their own, altough, i think if they ask for help then ans the arab countries agree they should sort it out. although this would lead to massive war.

sorry for my awful typing, im using a mac. i cant use macs