When Eurozone collapses, what next? (feels more when than if)

[Hamishbear]

Posted on Chat but felt this may be a better place.

So, the bailouts can't continue indefinitely, what happens next?

What's the best case scenario and how will it affect us in the short term and long term?

I couldn't agree more about 'keeping us in line'. There is also likely to be a 2 tier europe and that could cause war

The Euro was not about economics, it was about politics, and the financial crisis, created artificially by the bankers, is also not about economics, but about politics. Once the politics is as the patricians want it, then the economic woes will disappear and credit rating agencies will go back to rating companies and countries as they did before the crash ever happened.

'A few months ago I heard an economist on the radio saying that there would be war in Europe within 10/20 years if the Euro went and politics became even more polarized.'

Was this the BBC by any chance?
Remember what SuperSesame said about the difference between teh BBC doom-mongering and Irish TV.

Wars only generally happen when a country doesn't do as it is told. Most countries are not stupid enough to risk that.

Debt is used to control us. The person who lends calls the tune. Who is doing all the lending to governments? Where is the money comng from? I don't believe it is China etc. They are not in charge.

I don't think the outlook will be that bad. We will be allowed to slowly come out of recession. However, policies of low growth are still the overriding priority of elites and greens, in order to prevent population growth. So the outlook for humanity cannot be totally rosy.

claig,I probably agree with your posts.if I could be bothered to read it all
Any chance you could write a few less posts and get rid of some of the anger in them.
There again,perhaps it is just me,in which case,as you were.
Though I do think,the way information in general is delivered is vitally important,ortherwise,millions of people just switch off.

I think the winter of 2014-2015 has the potential to be bad for Britain.Am I right in saying that it is around that time that Britain has to go to the markets for a large amount of its funding?

amillionyears, I haven't got anger, I have just got cynicism. I just think that is the way that it is.

I think you make some intelligent points Claig and are clearly very well informed. You also understand economics very well, much better than I (although admittedly that would not be difficult :) ).

IMO there is no conspiracy, the 'elite' as you call them have no HQ, they operate largely independently. I know some of them (or what some might consider elite people) and most are as clueless as the rest of us, muddling along. There is no sinister message, quietly communicated in private.

Do David Cameron and Angela Merkell etc meet privately with sinister cronies we know nothing about and privately plan world domination etc? I think not. Is there some sinister faux green plot run by a secret leader operating from an underground lair on an island? I don't mean to mock but IMO things are more disjointed and generally badly thought through than any of us imagine. It could almost be funny if it wasn't so serious.

I haven't got the anger, but I am glad that some people do have enough anger to protest, to march, to march for saving their pensions, for doctors to go on strike for pensions, for disabled people to march against cuts and for trades unions to resist cuts.

I am just a cynical observer, I can do nothing, but people who get angry and march and demonstrate are the heroes who do do something to resist.

i suppose the point I am trying to make is,you do want your posts read ,and maye influence 10 people,or 1000 people.
All politicians,and I presume a whole load of civil servants etc,have training in delivering their message.If you are not bothered,that is up to you.I myself would quite like to read your posts,and maybe be influenced by them,but I have seen you write like this on other threads as well,and I'm afraid i just skim them.

'IMO things are more disjointed and generally badly thought through than any of us imagine'

I don't believe that. That is what they tell us. Look at teh influence that Murdoch had over governments. His voice weighed more than tens of thousands of voters. Campbell even said something like he allegedly asked Blair to speed up the war.

There are people far more powerful than Murdoch, and they aren't politicians, and they have agendas and plans they want implemented.

Yes perhaps, but if so these are individual people with their own private plans. They may be able to influence others but IMO they are not in sinister cahoots trying to push through a plan to overturn the world as we know it.

People are essentially selfish, generally they want to become or remain rich and powerful if they have the means to do so. It's that simple.

I think I agree with claig,13.05pm

Hamish, we know that in business, in the past, and maybe still now, there have been cartels, where companies made alliances and agreements to price goods at certain levels, which would aid the profitability of cartel members. We know that some companies applied restrictive practices in cartels and prevented competition from being free and fair and prevented other companies establishing a foothold in the market. We know that some comapnies have been taken to court for this and lost their cases. We know that the EU regularly look at companies to see if they are carrying out restrictive practices.

People are also like companies, they also collaborate to meet objectives. We know that some think tanks and political movements are funded by extremely rich and powerful people and not by the public.

Did you hear Radio 4 Today's programme yesterday about the green 'limits To Growth' report in the 1970s, which the BBC didn't say was funded by the elite Rockefeller backed 'Club of Rome' organisation. The 'Limits to Growth' report was teh blueprint for much of today's green movement. It was funded by elite people, not by Mrs Jones og number 42. The sceptic who had studied all the doom-mongering predictions of the report said that most had not come true. The report had said that we were running out of many resources, and in particular, mercury, which might run out in 10 years' time. But the sceptic showed that most commodity prices had decreased rather than increased which would not be the case for rare resources, and we still have mercury.

Doom and gloom reporting suits someone's agenda. The news on your TV suits someone's agenda. The question is whose and why?

I take it back, the BBC does mention that it emanates from 'Club of Rome' circles

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9729000/9729574.stm

Limits to growth is what austerity is all about. It is a means of stopping people's growth and expansion. That is what the real hidden elite want. That is what really drives some of the political policies that we see enacted and which will be enacted over the coming decades.

The real power is money at the end of the day. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Germany is imposing austerity on Greece in return for bailing Greece out. I think that donors to parties have an influence on party policy. Stephen Byers spoke of 'cabs for hire', with respect to some lobby groups. Think tanks are funded by people who possibly influence the direction of research. The IMF dictates political policy in a country that it lends money to. Technocrats have been installed in Italy and the elected leader, Berlusconi, has gone. Bankers call the tune in some countries.

The really rich and powerful call the tune, and some of the policies we see in practice are a result of their wishes.

What I can never get my head round,is,if the elites are doing this,are they more interested in power or money.i know its easy to say both,but I always wonder,if pust came to shove,which do they choose?

amillionyears, I think power and money are so inextricably linked. They want both.

"Whomsoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce" James A Garfield, US President

"Who is doing all the lending to governments?"

Anyone?

Scaevola most government gilts are sold to financial institutions like pension funds and insurance company

*companies

Somebody told me that Germany doesn't want Greece to leave the Euro because a lot of the money Greece owes is to Germany and they would lose out more if Greece left than if they stayed. This seems a bit simplistic to me.

What Greece may owe Germany would be only peanuts.

What the Germans are scare of is that if Greece leaves, reverts to the drachma and her economy recovers (as did Argentina's) it will make the others also consider leaving - and the Euro is supposed to be irreversible i.e. once you're in you're in for good.

There is a good chance greece would eventually be better off staying in they will be in debt forever and seen as 2nd class.

Disagree. Isn't Argentina who defualted several years ago represented at the G20 as one of the world's Top 20 economies?

By staying in the Euro Greece will be shackled for decades to come.