Class, does it matter?

[minimathsmouse]

We hear a lot about class but do we really unpack it and analyse it? We hear lots of terms such as the political class, working class, sex class, upper class, are we happy when we can categorise people, do we make assumptions and hold prejudices about people and class, do we feel more secure when we know where we are in the social pecking order?

Do we have allegiances to class, are we really attached to the idea because we are sentimental and class lines move but our perceptions haven't. Or is that the other way around, we think they have moved but in fact the same prejudice and antagonism is still bubbling below the surface?

Is it the last frontier in discrimination. Could we even tell if class discrimination actually does effect people in similar ways such as women's oppression or racism or other forms of discrimination.

Do we live in a meritocracy where class is no longer an issue?

What would society be like without class?

The university increased fee's were a blow in this house. I said to the dc that now they will have to pick a degree that will bring in money rather than doing what they facied and for one that was a drama degree to pay off their debt. There is no talk of not going to uni because of the fee's, I have heard others talk as if uni is no longer an option when it was before.

Interesting Cog, but as a forriner I am possibly more aware of the subtleties that have nothing to do with wealth and everything to do with background.

I come from a country that is too small to have a real class system, though there are inequities based more on race than wealth. Because I have an accent some people find it difficult to classify me. It's quite noticeable, especially when I come into contact with people from Upper/upper middle class backgrounds. Usually the questions are around my education and where I went to university. When, eventually they can lock onto something that puts me in a recognisable (to them) grouping you can almost see the relief in their eyes. As a foreigner I float outside the class system to a certain extent, but it still affects how I'm treated.

This does have it's funny moments though. Waiting to see the crown jewels in a school trip with DD I pointed out a picture of her (several times great) aunts who were ladies in waiting to Queen Victoria. You could have heard a pin drop when I came out with that one. Where I come from an aristocratic background is an interesting anomoly, nothing more. But you could see the other adults struggling to reassess their opinion of me.

What you're describing slug are 'social groupings' rather than class per se. You may have been questioned most by people who you have decided are upper/middle class but any insular group or community would be equally suspicious until they've worked out what you're about and whether you're OK or not.

I work for an international company and, in group get-togethers, what I'm most concerned with are the terms of reference. The UK being a secular & largely liberal country, for example, you can express certain opinions without anyone turning a hair. In an international gathering you have to tread more lightly on religion, homosexuality and other subjects until you're sure of your ground.

BTW.. I doubt anyone at the Tower was struggling to reassess their opinion of you. Your name dropping just made you look crass.

I think there actually is still a distinction in a lot of peoples' minds between a job that can be counted as a "profession" and one that isn't (with the exception of the oldest profession in the world, which nobody is supposed to want to join!). Hence the pressure for more areas of work to be "professionalised" or recognised as professions. Not earning much but being a member of a profession still has more status in society than not earning much in a job that has no professional status. Other than that, I think the main distinctions are ones of wealth. It is no longer considered so important how you choose to spend that wealth - that's now more a matter of personality than social class.

Ha Cognito. It wasn't a name dropping, it was a comment to my own daughter about a picture of one of her relatives. It wasn't made to the group as a whole, people just overheard it and all wildly reacted. It's not seen as name dropping where I come from, family connections from different class groupings are fairly common. Another side of my family were bog farmers from the South of Ireland. I'm just as happy to point that out to my child if I happen to see a picture of one of them, or any of the members of her extended family who have been international sportsmen.

I'm also not sure what the difference between "class" and "social groupings". An example. I used to work in a very posh boarding school in Scotland (think royal connections) I was attending one of the social events when the headmaster's wife was introduced to me. She was obviously finding it difficult to decide how to address me as I was employed initially to work in the kitchens (with the other forriners) but I had also stepped up to teach one of the courses when the subject teacher was off ill. (I have a degree in the subject, a few teaching qualifications and was onsite and available) She obviously couldn't work out how to classify me; kitchen staff, teaching staff, other. We had a chat about where I had done my degree and her response was "Oh X University, I hear it's a very good university" Having slotted me into the 'attended a socially accepted educational institution' slot she proceeded to treat me differently to the other kitchen staff (all of whom were equally educated as me). Now the joke is, there is no 'good' or 'bad' university where I come from. There aren't enough higher educational institutions to make a ranking possible. The name, however, sounds very much like an Oxbridge college.

This type of reaction is fairly common amongst the British. Like you, I work in an international institution. This type of questioning only comes from British colleagues. It's like they have to classify you before they know how to treat you. It's not something I encounter from the foreign staff, though my gender and perceived sexuality are more likely to have an effect there.

It's all about accent. There is a terrible snobbery in this country at the moment, emanating from the middle class. If anyone has a cockney accent, for example, they are immediately labelled stupid and anti social.

CogitoErgoSometimes you can't make a distinction between 'social groupings' and class, your 'social groupings' are exactly what class is all about. Its not only the amount of money/job you earn its how you socialise your offspring into a certain role or expectations.

Low expectation setting you talk about is part and parcel of being in a lower class - but then maybe the low expectations are justified if you examine how many children from poorer backgounds end up in 'the professions'. Why set your children up to fail?

There's a lot of research into how public schools educate their children to success in the way they carry themselves and leadership skills as well as the 3Rs. That's before you even start to examine the old boys network or the fact that people in high positions like to hire people that 'fit' with their idea of someone who could work with and succeed in their company.

If you come from a disadvantaged background, no matter how well you do academically you will still find it harder to break into a high level profession because people can tell which class you belong to and ascribe certain roles as suitable. This can be down to how you dress (non-tailored suits have a 'chav gap' at the collar according to Giles Coren), what films/shows you've been to see and are able to discuss in conversation or even whether you've recently been on a skiing holiday?

Yes class matters and no we don't live in a meritocracy - its a myth

So accent seems to convey a great deal, it is just one way that we make assumptions about class. I think so.

Would clothing and personal appearance also convey a degree of assessment about social class?

"Why set your children up to fail?"

So don't bother? That's the answer?... That's nothing to do with class, that's just defeatism. Again, if low-income Chinese and other Asian families can bring up their children to believe they can be lawyers and doctors, and they manage to get there, why can't everyone else? Aim for the stars and you might get to the moon... Aim for the top of the kerbstone and you'll be lucky to get out of the gutter.

Cog, have you ever though about going into schools, comprehensives and speaking to some of the young people? I say this because I think they need to come into contact with people that have a positive outlook and a can do attitude like yours.

However I do think some people face impossible barriers and that needs to be tackled as well.

What are we talking about here? Does social mobility simply mean getting richer or poorer? What does success mean? Getting richer?

Slug was touching on some of the issues, but each aspect is only part of it, imo.

I've heard that people who want to be upper class often get frustrated, because they just can't crack the code. They might talk the talk and walk the walk, but the fact that they weren't born that way is like a flashing beacon on their head for those who are in the know.

It's something money can't buy it seems - but it helps, obviously.

But then - the obvious question is why would you want to join a class you weren't born in? If you could be working class and rich, why would you want to be upper class and rich? What difference would it make to you?

Oh yes, pity the poor unloved Upper MC - derided as "posh" by the WC, and not even noticed by the toffs...but all the while trying to shimmy up that pole nonetheless.

Barriers exist, of course, but the biggest barriers are self-made. And that's why any discussion of 'class' annoys me after a while because I think we end up not only pointlessly chucking stereotypes at each other but pigeon-holing ourselves into social inertia for pretty silly reasons. That remark above about low expectation-setting being 'part and parcel of being in a lower class', for example. Logic would say that the people who have least have nothing to lose, everything to gain and should be cheering on anyone that makes a go of it. Maybe I should do that tour after all... :)

Maybe not low expectations, Cogito, but different ones.

Constantly aspiring to be something else is unlikely to make anyone happy, imo. Because ambitious people are seldom satisfied, by definition. They reach one goal then they start trying for another. That's not a path that suits most people, I think.

I'm not saying that anyone should be lazy or defeatist, just that people should value and build on what is positive in their lives. For example, having the time to take your child to the park might just not be possible for some high-flying go-getter. Whatever you choose in life, you win something and lose something else.

Not everyone feels the need to change the condition they are born into.

You shouldn't dismiss the risk of failure as a large part of the reason for the strong social class system we have in this country. If someone from a richer background wants to go to university, for example, the financial risk to them is much lower, they will have parents backing them up on living costs and have a good chance of coming out the other end and landing a decent job.

If a person from not such a well off background wants to go to university, they may be the only person in their family to have done so, £9000 plus living costs might be an unthinkable sum to spend on a qualification if you come from a family struggling to pay the rent. Especially if it means you won't be earning anything for 3 years and statistically are more likely to be unemployed when you graduate.

Its not lack of gumption or personal weakness its a very rational decision.

Solopower - the idea that people should be happy in the class they are educated to is patronising. We need active policies to level the playing field.

"ambitious people are seldom satisfied"

I don't see that at all. And I don't see 'high flying go-getter' either. Simply if you have an ambition and you fulfil that ambition that's better than having none at all or - worse - having someone tell you 'don't bother, you'll never do it, it's way beyond the likes of us'. Doesn't matter if you want to be a lawyer, an artist or a bank clerk.

"£9000 plus living costs might be an unthinkable sum to spend on a qualification if you come from a family struggling to pay the rent."

Might be but, if someone has the ambition they will shift heaven and earth to find the grants, get the Saturday jobs, and whatever else it takes. They will also get the career at the other side because they're motivated. By contrast, the kid from the well-off family that just drifts through any old degree and has lots of cash to fall back on is not as motivated. They're actually more likely to be the ones to be unemployed on graduation.

But then you're talking about the exceptional cases rather than the general population. Its these exceptions that reinforce the myth of social mobility.

You don't have to be exceptional to succeed if you come from a higher class but you do if you come from a lower class therefore social class definitely does matter.

People from a lower income background do not have to be exceptional. The academic qualifications for getting into a university are exactly the same regardless. They simply have to be a little more resourceful to overcome their lack of money and that resourcefulness will mean they are more likely to succeed ultimately. Even before tuition fees when maintenance grants were available, that was still true. Social mobility is not a myth.

"In the United States a place with less of a historical basis for the class system as we know it, but a class system non the less this vision even has a name: the American Dream. But when we look around us, reality falls far short. We see this reflected in everything from divorce rates, child abuse, domestic violence, alcoholism, drug abuse, stress, mental illness, and general feelings of isolation and frustration that so many people experience.

Rather than achieving self-realisation and living meaningful and fulfilling lives, many people experience some degree of alienation, and the ones that don?t are quite likely engaged in some form of self-deception, perhaps sustaining a sense of meaning and self-worth only with the help of illusions about themselves or their circumstances" Gasper

In the news today, "people are becoming hooked on sleeping pills, throughout the western world and this is happening because of the economic downturn"

But there has been a problem with the use of anti-depressants for a long time. Is it because people feel helpless and alienated? Ineffectual and unable to overcome their difficulties and are these the same people as the people that are not playing a game of self- deceiving?

And the answer to all that is that class means bugger all to the person with high self esteem, because they aren't relying on the rest of society to tell them what their life is worth.

The middle classes are bastards, they judge others insulting people based on accents and what they wear etc (calling people Chav and hoodies etc), the upper classes don't really care and seem to be pretty nice to all, the working class tend to judge people on actions rather then looks.

Middle class people are insecure in their position so need to assert there superiority over people I think.

I'm working class brought up on a council estate, my dad upper middle class brought up a house that would be worth over a million in todays money, my mum upper middle class.

The middle class are insecure, the most insecure position to be in, is in the middle. The aspiration to climb the ladder coupled with the fact that they could so easily fall off into the class below makes them insecure. It's a very precarious position.