Class, does it matter?

[minimathsmouse]

We hear a lot about class but do we really unpack it and analyse it? We hear lots of terms such as the political class, working class, sex class, upper class, are we happy when we can categorise people, do we make assumptions and hold prejudices about people and class, do we feel more secure when we know where we are in the social pecking order?

Do we have allegiances to class, are we really attached to the idea because we are sentimental and class lines move but our perceptions haven't. Or is that the other way around, we think they have moved but in fact the same prejudice and antagonism is still bubbling below the surface?

Is it the last frontier in discrimination. Could we even tell if class discrimination actually does effect people in similar ways such as women's oppression or racism or other forms of discrimination.

Do we live in a meritocracy where class is no longer an issue?

What would society be like without class?

Interesting.

I would say my parents were on the upper side of working class when I grew up.

I would say I married someone who is middle class and came from middle class parents.

I would say my dc are middle class.

I have no idea what class I am .

I would say people who know me from different stages of life would have different opinions on which class I am.

I have socialised with some very wealthy influencial people, and so have some of my relatives, so I have had a view into the upper class society as well.

It is my opinion that I am happy to spend time with people from any of the three classes, and I feel comfortable in their company.

I think class is still an issue for most.

I would say people who know me from different stages of life would have different opinions on which class I am is that because your circs changed or is that different people from different classes think differently?

My father came from a very wealthy family, my mother from a farming family but she married a french count before meeting my father. Both parents were militantly socialist, we had a comfortable life, I had more in relation to most friends as a child and went to the local comp

Why do you think class is an issue, I wonder in what way?

I come from a country where colour supercedes class. It does, it always will and will be that way until the end of days ....

I think there will always be a system of exclusion and comparison.

Being a foreigner, it is difficult to try to categorise myself and my family to the class system.

Do you find our class system complex? Was there a lot of discrimination between colours where you came from?

I had this discussion with my nephew. He said class was all about money and jobs. Therefore teachers and nurses are working class, shop owners lower middle (bourgeoisie), doctors and lawyers middle class and landowners upper. Which means that people like David Beckham are upper class because they are so rich.

I think we need some new labels!

Well, some people who met me after marriage seemed to think I was middle class, be that they middle class themselves or working class. The middle class people treated me like one of their own, the working class either I was posh agressive jealous type stuff, or above them and they beneath me their perception I was better than them . Now the upper class were either the sort who treated you normally, felt very guilty about their wealth and power or were huge narcacisstic types.

I think accent also has something to do with it. My parents came from another euoropean country where class is not an issue, it is more your job that is an issue, they were just average where they came from. We spoke nicely at home, none of the fink instead of think sort of stuff.

Now my dc blend in at school, local outstanding comp, and they pronounce words properly at home. There is no need for the clipped Kate Middleton RP or what ever it is called, just to speak clearly so that you can be understood.

David Beckham although why not?

I would put the shop owners in working class too personally.

David Beckham, has his medal worn on the wrong side, and is mates with Prince William, and he has a posh wife, he is now upper class with his working class accent.

I have always found genuinely landed wealthy people to be almost dismissive about class differences, really down to earth and very warm and witty. I have always found the "middle class" to be less warm, more aloof, less accepting of differences.

I just think that we were so tied up with the whole black/ white issue that we didn't have time to discriminate between colours, but the lines drawn between us all was down to language and culture.

I really don't understand or even appreciate the differences - even though I do speak English,the aspirations and combined experiences of each group is so very foreign to me. Really laying my cards on the table, I would think myself middle class

I don't know where I got this from it is a very true way to tell someone's class!

There are things each class speak about!

Here is one example

Working class, the cost of things....

Middle class, where they have travelled...

People from other countries don't understand our class system at all, even though they might well have one of their own that is alive and kicking.

It must be more than money and jobs. I think it's to do with accent, education and culture too; not so much where you live but how you live.

Being upper middle class is also a sort of attitude, a calm acceptance of your place in society, a sort of confidence (that even shy people have). It's not that they see themselves as being better than anyone else - it's more that they never think about it. It never occurs to them to question it or compare themselves with others.

I think if you aspire to something you aren't that thing. So people who are where they want to be are that thing. If you see what I mean. So upper/upper middles are probably happy with their lot and don't think about it.

Sadly this country is still appallingly class-ridden. Your parents' circumstances determine your chances of doing pretty much anything in life to an extreme degree in the UK. Social mobility has nose-dived. And even beyond the individual restrictions, there's a whole generation in their teens and 20s who are doing to be poorer than their parents (apart from the rich, as always). according to a report out today from the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility. (They are quoting an OECD study.) We've actually been going backwards, fgs.

I have no issue with class apart from one that really pisses me off,

the assumption that we all aspire to be middle class.

I dont. I am happy being working class and proud of it. That doesnt mean I despise the middle classes and all they stand for. I find it insulting that I am expected to want to move 'up'.

I think it is good to be able to cross a class if that is what you want.

There is nothing wrong with being in any class imho.

My personal experience is that the most disasified class is the middle class.

Also, an awful lot of us are downwardly mobile these days. I know people from upper class backgrounds living in council houses or renting, and buying their clothes from charity shops. But they don't see themselves as working class. They have this quiet conviction that they are what they are and nothing can take that consciousness of where they came from away from them. They don't necessarily think they are better than anyone else, and nor do they see themselves as failures. I suppose self-satisfaction is one word for it (though a bit pejorative).

It's difficult to generalise about this I suppose, since we can only go by our own experience.

But it is worrying how much worse off future generations will be - whatever their class.

Yes, Solo, mine are downwardly mobile, esp after Grandfather's second wife ran off with his fortune in all seriousness though I don't give a hoot. I think it upset my father who rather hypocritically felt aggrieved.

Edam, it is seriously worrying, I will look at the report later. We have the least socio/economically mobile society of any of the major wealthy countries.

We live in a wealth-oriented meritocracy where, with very few exceptions, success is defined by money or endeavour. Class only matters to the people who think it matters and largely restricts only those that accept restrictions. Anyone that groups people together with the phrase 'the likes of' thinks it matters. 'It's not for the likes of us'... 'too good for the likes of them'... Ask them to define what constitutes 'the likes of them' and they'll struggle beyond vague stereotypes that have very little bearing on anything. We all feel most comfortable with people that resemble ourselves which is a different sociological issue to class.

That's interesting Cog, I am inclined to agree that there are now only two classes. (infact this became more entrenched after the industrial revolution) Those that have wealth, those that do not. What I would disagree with though is how easy it is to move between the two. I am yet to look at edams link but I am off to have a read.

Whilst I accept that sociologists have used various means to assign class to people based on things like father's profession or educational qualifications I don't think a complex hierarchical system does exists, only that a belief in the middle class is what keeps many people from feeling less alienated.

It is relatively easy to move between the two if someone takes advantage of the UK education system which is still excellent value for money, even with tuition fees. Hence why the UK is actually more meritocratic than people think. What completely stymies those trying to advance is so often internal peer pressure and low expectations of the influential people in their lives... parents, teachers, friends.... to stay where they are. It takes far more guts to have ambitions to go to uni when your peers think that makes you 'up yourself' than if you're from a family of graduates. As an example, I remember a teacher I once met in Port Glasgow who told me, quite seriously, that the children in her class would 'never amount to much'. Social mobility is far more affected by low expectations than class.

And as proof that anything is possible when the expectations are unrestricted, I think you'll find that the group of people who are most socially mobile in the UK today are those of Asian or Chinese descent. They may have no money but they are ambitious, set high expectations and understand the value of education.

I agree with you Cogito, children from Asian decent I have come into contact with, since the time I was a child, are obsessed with them or their children being a Dr, Solicitor or accountant, the job, status and the income are number one in their lives, and they are working towards that at school.

"But it is worrying how much worse off future generations will be - whatever their class."

That's a classic example of how low expectation setting starts. If you have children and pass on your view that they will be worse off, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you keep that view but pass onto your children that to avoid being worse off they should work hard, grab opportunties and reject anyone that thinks 'what's the point?' is a good life-strategy ... they are more likely to succeed in life.