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Politics

In hoping the benefits cap may prove to be A Good Thing?

339 replies

thepeoplesprincess · 23/01/2012 14:45

In the long run. For private renters anyway.

As things currently stand, private landlords are getting away with charging extortionate rents that few can afford because the shortfall is made up by Housing Benefit. So if benefits are to be capped, landlords will (hopefully) be forced to lower their rents to affordable levels or sell up if they can't find tenants that can and will pay hundreds of pounds a month. Either will be great for the average Joe IMO.

OP posts:
2rebecca · 23/01/2012 22:11

My graduate husband earns 35k. Getting that amount for not working is madness. Working people have to choose a house/ flat they can afford why not those on benefits.
I couldn't afford a house like mine in Edinburgh so.... I don't live in Edinburgh.

wannaBe · 23/01/2012 22:43

the issue is one of entitlement.

The problem is that people in this country have never lived somewhere where they can't fall back on the government if they find themselves out of work, and where, let's be frank, it is possible to choose to not work for a living.

There was a woman on bbc news earlier this evening saying that if a benefits cap comes into force she will lose £600 a week. Shock she wasn't your typical daily mail case either - but that means that she is earning £1100 a week - that's a total of £57200 a year - tax free. That puts her in the top 1% of earners in the country - courtesey of the taxpayer. And people are ok with this?

The problem is that people seem to be either on one side or another - there seems to be no middle ground or the ability to find middle ground.

Benefits should be there for people who have no other choice but to claim them. People who fall on hard times due to job loss/illness/disability which makes them incapable of work (and not all disability equals unable to work).

Yes there are people out there who cannot work and who have no other choice but to claim benefits. But there are equally lots of people who are perfectly capable of work and who choose not to, and I include some disabled in that - I know plenty of people with disabilities who don't work simply because the government facilitates them not doing so.

Now I concede that it is more difficult for some people with disabilities to find work, and that in some cases a disability might preclude one from doing certain jobs (I could never be a driving instructor, for instance), and I also believe that the government should revise the access to work scheme to make it less easy for employers (especially larger companies) to discriminate, however I don't believe that being registered disabled should automatically mean that you should be able to claim whatever benefits without the question being asked as to whether you are capable of work.

Equally I think that the workfare scheme which allow larger companies to essentially hire an unpaid workforce should be scrapped thus enabling more people to be employed properly as opposed to being exploited to the financial gain of tesco and the like.

Benefits should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice. And it should never be possible to earn more on benefits than you earn in a paid job.

People need to start taking responsibility for themselves as much as anything. Questions have been asked as to how this will affect larger families - well if you've found yourself needing benefits and you have a large family then that should be taken into account. But if you're already on benefits and struggling to survive then why on earth should the taxpayer pay for you to keep having children?

Maybe it needs to be dealt with in a different way, but the fact is that previous government spending has got us into a situation where more drastic action needs to be taken.

WinterIsComing · 23/01/2012 22:57

It's been a miserable day on MN but Kellogg, your auto-correct has made me laugh out loud.

"I have a despotic to buy a house saved in the bank"

Thank you Grin

I have a despotic aged four but he is in bed asleep for now

Sonotwonderwoman · 24/01/2012 06:51

winter Grin

DutchOma · 24/01/2012 07:57

If only there were more jobs for people to go to it would make perfect sense that people who work should get more than people on benefit.
But so many people are being made redundant and then have their benefits cut because they can't find another job.
I just can't see how it makes sense.

EauDeLaPoisson · 24/01/2012 07:59

They are having them cut as they have always been far too high!!

Avantia · 24/01/2012 08:23

Agree with Wannabe - the country has been a victim of its own circumstances with welfare .

About time there was a cap and it has to start somewhere I'm afraid.

Far too many people willing to accept benefit and do nothing to help their circumstances ( like churning out children.)

mummymeister · 24/01/2012 08:46

The benefits cap is overall a good thing. those of us in work have to move if we can't afford the rent in a particular area, we restrict the number of kids we have if can't afford them then we don't have them. get your local paper this week and see how many jobs there are advertised week after week. some long term unemployed won't take them because why should they cut down their standard of living and have to be out all day. there is a hard core group of families who have never worked - grandparents, parents and children and they never will unless they have to and i am paying for them to do this. I want my money to go to the doubling of benefits for people with real long term disabilities and people looking after them. i also want my benefits to go to those who are working every hour God sends in low paid work for the dignity of it so that they get much more through working tax credits.

Whatmeworry · 24/01/2012 08:50

It had to be capped, you can't have a system where its possible to earn above the average wage by not working.

And even the present level is questionably high, as it equates to more than the average salary, they've probably settled on the generous side to ensure the anti-caps don't have much of a leg to stand on and the public are on-side..

bumbleymummy · 24/01/2012 08:54

Good post wannabe. I don't think it's fair at all for people to be subsidised to live in bigger houses, in more expensive areas than people who are working can afford. 26 k a year tax free ie. 35k is more than a lot of people earn by working 40 hours a week. They manage to put a roof over their heads and feed their family for that. There really is a ridiculous sense of entitlement in this country.

Nilgiri · 24/01/2012 09:03

Mummymeister, unfortunately ESA (for people with longterm disabilities) and Carers Allowance are included in the £26K cap.

Only households where someone is so disabled they need DLA for personal care or have severe mobility problems will be exempt. And the government is planning to further restrict DLA eligibility to cut the bill by 20%, so is planning to take it from some wheelchair users.

ILoveGreggsSausageRolls · 24/01/2012 09:18

Whilst capping benefits they should increase minimum wage. At the end of the day someone on £25k will be on £14 per hour based on a 35 hour working week.

If the government did more to increase the imbalance between benefits and NMW, not only could it help people the government would benefit from increased income tax and national insurance

ILoveGreggsSausageRolls · 24/01/2012 09:23

Also what could be introduced is a system of where if you have say three children, you will be assisted. However you won't get anymore money or a bigger house for subsequent children.

It might make people who have a child every so often to stay in the benefits system think before having anymore.

Or termination/adoption rates could go up, as well as child poverty :(

turbochildren · 24/01/2012 09:36

This may have been addressed by someone but haven't got time to read all the thread. We are in a situation where we moved to the south east to have a better life ( reasons: severe bullying at work, depression, off work for 2 years) we came to be closer to family and to start again. Great for the children, lots of friends, great school. Workwise, building up business which is slow due to unexpected pregnancy. Recieve HB for first time. Landlord needs his house back, so we cheerfully entered the world of estate agants again, except as we are on HB (we do work, so it is partly) nobody wants to touch us with a barge pole. Have good references from previous landlords, are stable due to work and children in school. But no. So now, our landlord may have to go through the courts to get us out, as the council will not help us unless we have gone through that procedure. ( stressful and unwanted for both us and landlord.) And at the end of that we may have to be put into bed and breakfast, because no private landlords will take us on and there are no available council houses.
So allthough I understand this benefit cap, I do not understand all the vitriol from people who are not in this situation, and who seem to view all people receiving benefits as scroungers.
Incidently, we are happy to relocate, so are looking for work in other parts of the land. But yes, it is a different kettle of fish with this possible eviction hanging over our heads.

Lougle · 24/01/2012 09:46

Do people realise how Housing benefit is calculated?

The amount of money you earn is calculated alongide the amount that the government has said you need to meet basic needs.

Amounts here.

They add up all the 'applicable amounts', then look at all your income (except for CB).

They calculate 65% of the difference (if your income exceeds your applicable amount) and your LHA is reduced by that much.

So, say you earn £100 more than your applicable amount each week, your LHA would be reduced by £65 per week.

What this Government are doing, is saying 'I know we've worked out what the minimum you need to live on is, but that doesn't look good when it actually gets written on paper...so we'll reduce it'.

How is that moral? How is it moral to acknowledge the bare minimum a family needs to be out of poverty, yet deliberately plunge them into poverty?

thepeoplesprincess · 24/01/2012 09:46

The benefits cap is overall a good thing. those of us in work have to move if we can't afford the rent in a particular area

You do realise you're talking horse manure, don't you? Working families are just as entitled as non-working families to receive Housing Benefit if their income is below a certain level.

OP posts:
Hullygully · 24/01/2012 09:46

Here are a couple of interesting facts:

  1. The people that lose their homes WON'T be the single parent on White Lightening with seventeen kids and a plasma tv...because they live in affordable social housing.

The people that lose their homes will be the working poor, trying to live on the minimum wage and paying huge amounts of private rent.

  1. If all benefits are cut, no one earning a low wage will be better off, the rich will be even better off as the savings will be ploughed into tax cuts.
  1. Up unitl 2020 no low wages will rise, but higher earners will still see their wages increase.
  1. WE ARE NOT IN THIS TOGETHER.
VeryLittleGravitas · 24/01/2012 09:54

While households receiving DLA will be exempt from the cap, the government (tellingly) hasn't said that PIP claimants (replacement benefit for DLA) will also be exempt.

sunshineandbooks · 24/01/2012 10:21

The number of people who keep 'churning out children' to milk the benefits system are very low, so let's not pretend that we are talking about the majority of benefit claimants.

The vast majority of single mothers are in their 30s and single following separation or divorce. Less than 2% are unmarried teenage mums and even fewer have 5-bed homes and plasma TVs - despite what the right-wing press would have you believe.

The birth rate in the UK is falling, because most people are having fewer children. Funnily enough, this includes those on benefits as there is no such thing as 'a typical person on benefits' as they are not an homogenous whole but people from all walks of life and varying circumstance just like the rest of us. The so-called underclass where three-generations have never worked and the mum has 30 kids by 30 different fathers may exist, but they are a minority. By creating a system designed to punish them, you actually punish the majority of benefit claimants who do not deserve it.

There are always going to be people who exploit a situation. The thing is whether you think that justifies removing help from the much greater number who don't. I don't think it does.

sashh · 24/01/2012 10:30

dreamingofsun

When I was made redundant many years ago living in a studio flat HB would not cover my full rent because they considered it a 'bed sit' - there answer was to move to a one bedroomed place where they would pay the rent. My argument that if I then got a job I couldn't afford the rent on a one bedroom was useless. BTW they would also pay for the move.

20SomethingmumUK · 24/01/2012 10:34

There is no way the cap will put an end to extortionate rents. There is no legislation in place with Private Landlords and there needs to be. In my area, the council pays, (I'm told) due to the rate reduction brought in months back by the government, £700 a month for a 2 bed property. However, the cheapest two bed properties in the area are over a thousand pound a month.
If anything, the government needs to bring in caps on how much Landlords can charge. However, with the Tories in government, it's a case of helping the rich to get richer and robbing the most vulnerable. Its the highest earners who should be the ones helping the country out of financial strife.

KWL51 · 24/01/2012 10:42

Hullygully - ^Here are a couple of interesting facts:

  1. The people that lose their homes WON'T be the single parent on White Lightening with seventeen kids and a plasma tv...because they live in affordable social housing.

The people that lose their homes will be the working poor, trying to live on the minimum wage and paying huge amounts of private rent.

  1. If all benefits are cut, no one earning a low wage will be better off, the rich will be even better off as the savings will be ploughed into tax cuts.
  1. Up unitl 2020 no low wages will rise, but higher earners will still see their wages increase.
  1. WE ARE NOT IN THIS TOGETHER.^

Thank you for stating what i was trying to say and totally failed in my rambling.

Hullygully · 24/01/2012 10:47

KW - I think we need to keep the message clear and simple, people's eyes glaze over at statistics!

olgaga · 24/01/2012 10:49

This legislation is aimed squarely at people who do not work but choose to have large families - 3 or more children. That's the only way you can be getting more than £26,000 in benefits as far as I can see.

They're trying to achieve a cultural change, the message is "Don't have kids you can't afford, and expect to live in expensive parts of London and the South East". There are 18 local authorities where more than 1,000 families will be affected, 17 of them are in London.

This is a good rticle: www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/23/welfare-reform-benefit-cap-questions-answers?newsfeed=true

Those of you imagining there will suddenly be loads of empty buy-to-let properties in London and the South East are going to be sadly disappointed. The whole point of it is to make space for nice middle-class professionals where the jobs are!

Of course those who will suffer the most are the children of people who make the unwise choice to have kids before they can even afford to home themselves, let alone their kids. It used to be accepted (albeit grudgingly) that as a society we should protect children from their parents' lack of responsibility and poor judgement. I'm afraid the election of a Tory-led coalition means those days are over.

What's worse is that it will increase the homeless burden on councils in the poorest areas - even Eric Pickles thinks so! But hey, who cares about that as long as the nice parts of London and the South East are cleared of the poor, making way for the middle classes.

Yet the recent YouGov poll shows just how popular the cap is:

"YouGov found that 69% of British people, including two-thirds of Labour supporters, either support the Coalition's benefits cap of £26,000 per household or think it should be even stricter. Only 16% want a more generous cap or no cap at all. The cap is one of the reasons why welfare reform is the most popular part of the Coalition's programme."

bumbleymummy · 24/01/2012 10:49

"Its the highest earners who should be the ones helping the country out of financial strife."

They already are. Who do you think pays the most in tax?

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