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Original poster

Anyone else been balloted to strike on Nov 30th?

28 replies

ProperLush · 04/11/2011 15:07

I have- I'm a HCP which muddies the waters somewhat- but hey, guess the Coalition are delighted that the Daily Mail reading public might loathe us nasty, gold-plated pension hoarding Public Sector Workers even more if a essential public service is compromised!

Once upon a time there was a special independent commission convened to discuss the wage rises etc of workers such as us, based on the principle that striking, for us, was a much more difficult 'moral' decision to make than for say a teacher or train driver. So we were less likely to find ourselves pushed into tight corners

That no longer exists.

My ballot paper is counted on Nov 14th so I have a few days to consider.

Personally I can't help but think that the 'trade off' for the long hours and rubbish pay I received 25 years ago was my pension so I am maybe not going to stand by whilst that is effectively decimated.

I am prepared to work for more years before receiving it, but as for the 'higher contributions' and 'lower returns' in addition to 'more years work'.... No.

OP posts:
notcitrus · 04/11/2011 15:30

I have - I'm a paper-pusher about to go on maternity leave so will be simply winding up lots of things by then and don't have the same guilt issues.
My small union has never been on strike in over 100 years, though we nearly did 5 years ago over pensions.

The unions have done the maths and the pension schemes are now affordable after changes made twice in the last decade, so there is no reason to attack them again, particularly without negotiation, except for trying to convince non-civil-servants that they aren't being attacked.

I do my job for the job satisfaction and feeling useful, followed by knowing I'm at least getting an OK salary when pension is considered. As all three are under attack, I'm starting to look elsewhere.

Fraidylady · 04/11/2011 22:23

But what good will striking do?

I'm sooooo torn.

I think the unions should have done far more to get the media onside. I think they've let us down totally.

onepieceofcremeegg · 04/11/2011 22:26

not sure yet.

I'm in the RCN - apparently this is the situation:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8787687/Nursing-union-to-decide-on-strike-ballot.html

onepieceofcremeegg · 04/11/2011 22:27

Sorry meant to say no we've not been balloted yet (RCN) the article I linked to is relevant though. :)

Original poster
ProperLush · 05/11/2011 16:47

I believe there's a lot of fence sitting going on re whether to strike or not.

As for what good it will do, at least it will show the government that we're not just going to take it all lying down- that, with this crowd, would be very dangerous as they'd see it as a green light to see what further impositions it can put on us. We had our pensions re-modelled a couple of years ago as it is and post 2008 all new employees are on a worse deal to the longer serving workers. That made our NHS pensions affordable workable. We all agreed to a lesser or greater extent to that. Now suddenly, they're scrapping the pre-2008 scheme; no consultation, no nuffink. It's rather like the anti-motorway protesters: ultimately they might lose the individual battles but let's face it, no government new motorway building has become a hot potato no government wants the headache of getting involved with. They know they'll no longer get their way.

I'd like to believe that at least I put up a fight when I spend my old age in penury.

fwiw, I agree that we and our unions could have done more to get the public mood more on side but it's hard in these Right Wing times with lots of scared folks turning to the 'certainties' of a right wing press to 'inform' them like the Daily Fail and the Torygraph. Gold plated pensions, my arse.

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 06/11/2011 12:25

Academic question. I was doing a few calculations based on the widely reported figure that the average public sector worker retires on a pension of £5000... correct me if I'm wrong. I worked out that under a money-purchase style arrangement where the final fund goes towards an annuity, a relatively healthy retiree would have to have about £100,000 invested in order to get an annuity that provides them with £5000/year. Since pension funds can go down as well as up that means someone starting work age 20 and retiring age 65 has to put aside about £180/month to hit the £100,000 target. Obviously, if the employer contributes to the scheme, the employee's contribution comes down.

So the question is.... for this average worker expecting a pension of £5000/year on retirement, what do they currently contribute and what is the proposal for the future?

CustardCake · 06/11/2011 14:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Solopower · 06/11/2011 14:40

Properlush, I am a fence-sitter, I'm afraid. On the one hand, I can see why it's unfair to people to sign up for one set of terms of employment, only to have this changed without any consultation. On the other, I feel that, as public sector employees we also have to take our share of the austerity measures. We are all living longer, so we should be prepared to work longer, so that younger people aren't burdened with supporting us. But if we work longer, we are taking jobs from younger people who need them more.

As I said, totally split.

Solopower · 06/11/2011 14:41

Added to which, I don't trust this government, and I'm far from sure that austerity is the way to go or that they would ever, ever, put us first when it comes to priorities.

Basically it comes down to this: is it really a good idea to make a whole load of people poorer while in work (= less money to spend/taxes to pay/more need for NHS/benefits), and when old (= generation of poorer older people who need more help from working younger people)? I just see how this makes sense.

I think I've just climbed off the fence. Maybe.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 06/11/2011 14:58

Solopower - I feel exactly the same way you do.

I'm torn further in that DH works in the private sector (in a 'good' job), and has nowhere near the same employment rights or pension that I do. He has rightly pointed out that there are probably many, many people working right now who would give their right arm for a non-redundancy policy (which we have) and the sort of pension rights I enjoy in return for working longer (albeit with a reduced pension).

Having said that, I did sign up for a particular set of terms and conditions....oh, I just don't know what to do.

Does anyone know what happens if you decide not to strike? Do you just go into work as normal? Do you have to cross a picket line and have things thrown at your car/verbal abuse hurled at you?

ihatebabyjake · 06/11/2011 15:02

CogitoErgoSometimes

I'm not sure where you think you can get an annuity that pay £5000 for every £100k in your pension pot? You might get a level annuity that pays 5% but if you want something inflation linked (which makes it comparable to public sector pension indexation) I suspect that you would struggle to get much more than 2.5%-3%.

So realistically to get £5000 a year, a private sector defined contribution pension pot will need to be close to £200k.

So assuming you started your pension at 23 and took it at 68 (45 years) then you would have needed to save around £370/month in today's terms to get a £5000 pension in today's terms. Obviously if your investments had outperformed inflation this would be less and more if they had underperformed.

ihatebabyjake · 06/11/2011 15:08

I'm also think you are slightly underestimating the average public sector pension

The Hutton report found the average pension payments in 2009-10 was £7,800, with this breakdown

Local government worker: £4,052
NHS worker: £7,234
Civil servant: £6,199
Teacher: £9,806
Member of armed forces: £7,722

So i think the actual equivalent defined contribution pension pot in the private sector is probably around £300k or so.

MissTinaTeaspoon · 06/11/2011 15:18

Another one on the fence here. I'm a member of the rcn and can't come to any sort of decision on this! I want to take action to protect not only my pension but as others have said, I also want to make my voice heard - enough is enough! I just can't see how I can afford to contribute more when the cost of living has increased so much and we aren't likely to have any pay rises in the near future. It's not just about the proposed end to the final salary scheme, it's also the increased contributions and later retirement age. I just can't see how I will be physically up to staying up all night on my feet when I'm 67. And it's all very well saying that I would be able to change jobs when I'm older, but where would I go? There aren't that many jobs in nursing that don't involve shifts or physical work, not without major retraining anyway, and I don't think I'll be up for university at that age either!

On the other hand, my conscience is screaming 'no!'. Who would be left to look after the patients? And if the strikers were successful in overthrowing this (or at least getting some proper negotiations going) how would I feel knowing that I hadn't helped?

Confused
Solopower · 06/11/2011 15:29

Nurses always have a more difficult decision than the rest of us, MissTina. I don't know what you should do about the pensions thing - but you also have to contend with all the other changes to the NHS - so you have my sympathy!

When there have been strikes in the past, have the patients and their families been given advance warning? Are the families allowed to come in and help look after their relatives if the nurses are on strike?

CogitoErgoSometimes · 06/11/2011 16:03

"I'm not sure where you think you can get an annuity that pay £5000 for every £100k in your pension pot?"

I did a quick 'what if' comparison - a few quotes based on £100k - but, no, there was no index-linking, it was a straight amount and I hadn't built in anything for fund-growth to keep things simple. Which brings me back to the question... what is an NHS worker (as they seem to be average) being asked to pay vs what they had to pay previously?

Original poster
ProperLush · 06/11/2011 20:42

any use?

This is a booklet our union has published.

OP posts:
Original poster
ProperLush · 06/11/2011 21:40

Pension Justice

And this is a more in-depth look at why we're pissed off.

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 06/11/2011 22:46

I can see now how pay gaps and the divide between rich and poor are ever increasing. It appears to work like this: if you are poor, you should compare yourself to people even less well off than you and aspire to be in their position (ie never fight for better conditions, never fight to maintain the status quo and never ask for a far worse deal to be ameliorated in any way). If you are extremely rich, you should compare yourself to people even better off than you and use this to justify your pay increases and bonuses. What a jolly world we live in.

newwave · 06/11/2011 23:13

Rabbit, very very well put.

Those at the top need "incentives" to work hard and do their best.

Those at the bottom need their pay, terms and conditions cut "for the good of the company/society"

The Tory philosophy in a nutshell.

Original poster
ProperLush · 07/11/2011 08:24

Yes, indeed, Rabbit.

One thing that gets me mad is when I'm told I'm 'lucky to have a job'- well, no one was crowing that back in 1983 when I qualified and was earning such a pitiful wage I had to leave London as my overdraft climbed (whilst my 'private counterparts were buying up property there because they could, 2 years or so before that madness caused that property crash....). No one was giving me bonuses during the boom years- in fact, the government of the day introduced the 'shared ownership scheme' to try and help people like me to afford a roof over my head as we'd been so summarily priced out of the market.... Until last month my pay contained a small but politically significant ''recruitment and retention'' amount to try and encourage us not stay in the NHS. (That , too, has gone!)

But what I did have was a bit more job security and a 'living' pension, two things many young folk in the 'private sector' were more than happy to sacrifice in order to get more cash in their back pockets.

Well, it's all come home to roost- but now I'm being called a fat-cat with a gold plated pension. SO they've taken my job-security and now want my pension.

Can you see why I'm not taking that lying down?

OP posts:
Original poster
ProperLush · 07/11/2011 08:25

I, of course meant 'encourage us to stay in the NHS'- The 'not' must've been a Freudian slip...Grin

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EttiKetti · 07/11/2011 08:33

I am an NHS worker, not a HCP. I have paid into my pension for 22 years and whilst I fully expected to have to work for longer to draw my pension, as state pension age has risen over the years anyway, to pay MORE in and gain less from that really galls me.

However, I am a recent member of Unison (was advised to join when it looked like my job was either going to under threat or terms greatly altered), and I have no idea what the implications are if Unison strikes. Do I have to?

BikeRunSki · 07/11/2011 08:36

I've been ballotted, but I am on mat leave...

CustardCake · 07/11/2011 08:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maisiethemorningsidecat · 07/11/2011 10:29

So I wouldn't have to cross a picket line like you see on the TV? There are some horrible scenes of workers getting screamed at through their cars, or things thrown at them....

I really, really can't afford to lose a days pay, esp. as I would imagine I'll stick have to pay for childcare that day - I'm not saying I'm thrilled at what they are proposing though, but as this moment in time finances don't allow me to strike. That may change for our family in the future though - and yes, I know it's for the long term, but if it's a case of going into debt now then I can't do it.