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Politics

For all those getting more left-wing as they get older - we are not alone!

60 replies

breadandbutterfly · 24/10/2011 19:11

:)

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/23/miss-britain-of-public-ownership

Lovely article. So nice to know I'm not the only one. :)

OP posts:
moondog · 19/11/2011 16:37

'everyone is rewarded appropriately for the contribution they make'

Who decides on the value of the contribution and the nature of the reward then?

woollyideas · 19/11/2011 17:55

Well I would suggest that nobody's 'contribution' is worth several million a year and that the minimum wage should be increased so people don't rely on tax credits in order to live and aren't in the position where they are financially better off on benefits.

woollyideas · 19/11/2011 17:55

'run', not 'ruin' obviously...

ilovemydogandMrObama · 19/11/2011 17:58

didn't the Green party work out that a 'proper' minimum wage would be about £8.00 a hour?

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 23:00

ilovemydogetc - loving the name. :)

I think woollyideas has put it pretty well.

At the moment, supposedly 'the market' decides. Except it doesn't, because the market is cocked up by things like tax credits. Hence many companies can employ people for wages much lower than they'd really be prepared to work, as the taxpayer is kindly bumping their wages up to a vaguely liveable-on level via tax credits, housing benefit etc.

Whilst at the other end of the spectrum, executive wages are decided on by...executives, sitting on each others boards and pay panels, who, funnily enough, decide that they're all really important and should be paid...oooh, 50% more this year please. Even though productivity is up nowhere near 50%.

So frankly, any method of calculating rewards more fairly (putting bits of paper in a hat and drawing them out??) would probably be better than the one we have curently. :)

OP posts:
malakadoush · 20/11/2011 13:24

Yes, you do have to question a firms contribution to the economy if the directors earn massive salaries and have generous benefit packages, but the people they employ continue to rely on state support to live.

And I think that is exactly the kind of area that needs looking at and changing.

ProgressivePatriot · 24/11/2011 13:48

Mr Pants, Marcus Brigstocke once sang a fantastic satirical number called 'Ethiopia, Land of the Free'. I can't find a link, but if you ever come across the lyrics you'd do well to read them. Also, if you're a libertarian, i presume you've read Chomsky?

MrPants · 29/11/2011 00:58

Hi there. Firstly, I've got two apologies to make. One, for resurrecting a thread that should probably be allowed a dignified death and two for taking so long to respond to a post addressed to me.

So without further ado... breadandbutterfly takes umbrage with me for asking everyone to do a thought experiment whereby one imagines that government spending is severely slashed and the money that gets saved is returned to the economy via tax cuts. They wrote I don't need some interesting hypothetical stretch of the imagination to figure out what the world would be like if the government spent less... because that is exactly what this government ARE doing.

In a nutshell, no they're not. The Tories are reducing spending certainly, but only to reduce the deficit. There has been no mention of tax cuts - in fact, it was the Tories who raised VAT to 20% and refuse to cut the 50p Income Tax rate or Inheritance Tax. Doing one without the other won't stimulate the economy.

You then go on to list areas of governmental intervention that my business couldn't do without. Like you, all Libertarians believe in the rule of law so, like you, most of us don't have a problem with a judiciary, law enforcement or a penal system - we accept that some tax needs to be spent.

You move on to a slightly sticky wicket when you mention infrastructure that our taxes go towards, namely roads, public transport, rubbish collection. Roads are essentially a state monopoly paid for several times over with our Vehicle Excise Duty and Fuel Taxes. I would certainly welcome wide scale privatisation of our road network if it resulted in lower fuel prices and the abolition of the VED.
It was the private sector that built and successfully ran our rail network for donkey?s years. It was only in the aftermath of the last war that rail was nationalised and it's been going to hell in a hand cart ever since. The 'privatisation' plan put forth by the last government ballsed up the system even more - one thing we don't have in our rail system is capitalism or a free market.
Finally, why can't rubbish collection be privatised? If I want my bins emptied weekly, why don't I strike a deal with a collection company, likewise, if I hardly generate any rubbish at all why not have a collection once a month and they can charge me a bit less? Why do we assume rubbish collection can only be provided by a government, one-size-fits-all monopoly?

You also mention Trading Standards but surely any trade that I do is bound under contract law - Caveat Emptor and all that...

You mention schools - again all evidence points to a market based system (either through Private schooling or through the provision of a voucher system) as being the best way to deliver education for the majority of kids. Also, could you explain why the state has to take direct responsibility for educating children rather than just being a provider of funds? It doesn't take responsibility to feed you if you are out of work, it gives you a sum of money and expects you to find food for yourself as provided by any supplier in a free and competitive market - why the double standards on education and health?

the happiest and most economically successful countries are those like Scandinavia... which actually pay relatively high taxes and have correspondingly relatively equal societies and strong benefits. Well Norway, for example, is a country more or less the same size as Britain, they have more or less the same natural resources as us and have oil and gas reserves roughly the same as ours - we split our resources amongst our population of 70 million, they do the same split but between a mere 5 million people. Sweden, on the other hand, has spent much of the last ten years moving away from being a country of big government - they have embraced libertarianism and, so far, the signs seem to be good for their economy. It will be an interesting place to watch over the next few years.

Your final paragraph asks me to name a no-taxation model and suggests that my policies would wind the clock back to Victorian Britain - I suggest nothing of the sort. I'm for a low taxation economy (Singapore, New Zealand), not a no taxation economy (Monte Carlo, Cayman Isles) and would suggest closely following the experience of the New Zealand government over the last twenty years or so.

ProgressivePatriot I'm really not a fan of Marcus Brigstocke - trying to claim that a country which conscripts children to fight in wars and refuses to address the root causes of its famines, i.e. land reform and the rule of law, is somehow libertarian makes him come across as a cock! Finally, I have read Chomsky - his work on linguistics is very interesting - Libertarian Socialism, with its dogmatic principles of who can own what, is an oxymoron. In my opinion, any form of Libertarianism which requires rules beyond property rights and contract law (i.e. who owns what and to whom, and under what circumstances, are they selling) is off to a non-starter.

crypes · 29/11/2011 18:53

Tony Blair was kissing Gadaffi because he secretly was impressed with dictatorship, he brought in loads of stupid mini laws that impeded our freedom as Mrpants pointed out and Blair then walked around wearing a bullet proof vest incase some one tried to shoot him. Why do all our leaders try to ruin our country, is it all to do with greed and making a fast buck once their in power.

SnakePlisskensMum · 05/12/2011 12:33

I don't think any of it will change until we have a system where politicians stop thinking about the short term i.e. the next election and start to think long term, for the good of the country, not themselves.

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