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Politics

For all those getting more left-wing as they get older - we are not alone!

60 replies

breadandbutterfly · 24/10/2011 19:11

:)

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/23/miss-britain-of-public-ownership

Lovely article. So nice to know I'm not the only one. :)

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MrPants · 17/11/2011 20:38

The only reason to ever give up on a logical arguement is when you run out of logic.

Hullygully · 17/11/2011 22:13

Or when there's no need for it because the evidence stands up in front of you every day talking self-interested bollocks.

And if we want logic, here's a syllogism:

I am a thick and/or greedy cunt
All right-wingers are thick and/or greedy cunts
Therefore I am a cunt

breadandbutterfly · 17/11/2011 22:20

MrPants - hoping the 'arguement' was a typo, not a genuine don't know.

I typed a long post in reply to one of your posts a bit ago, lost it and lost the will entirely to repeat it, as I knew it would be like arguing with a brick wall. You see, I haven't given up on my logic, but am rather dubious about yours.

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MrPants · 17/11/2011 23:26

Hullygully & breadandbutterfly I really don't know what I've done to piss on your chips and generate such hostility.

I'm not thick but I'm no brainbox either, nor am I all that greedy but I am right wing (or, more realistically I despise Socialism in all its forms). I own my own business which, at the moment, only employs me. It certainly doesn't pay any more than I could realistically earn doing the same job for a large established company (I'm an engineer). Hopefully, if things pick up in the future, I might take on someone else and there will be one less person on the dole. I have an aversion to seeing my hard earned money being confiscated with menaces by a government that is happy to spend it on luxuries and non-essentials and I choose to exercise my right to free speech to tell people about this - none of this makes me the devil incarnate.

I grew up in a benefit dependant household in one of the most deprived areas of Northern England and chose to move over 200 miles away to find work. My working class credentials are impeccable. I live a comfortable life and would happily consider myself to be middle class nowadays. I got to where I am despite the government, not because of it. As I said, I'm no academic brainbox I got where I am with application, hard work and good timing - if I can be successful, anyone can - honestly, I'm nothing special. Does this position justify being called the harshest word in our language - I think not. Is this self-interested bollocks? Perhaps.

The typo was a genuine 'don't know'. It's one of those bete noires that I thought we all have. Seriously, sometimes I struggle to spell the simplest words - Every time I type words like obviously, friend, bureaucrat and argument I have to copy and paste into Word so I can use the spellchecker! I told you I wasn't that bright!

I do try to have a consistent thought process which connects my posts and the topics I comment on - this probably makes me seem like a one trick nutter - but I can assure you that I do have a life away from Mumsnet. If there has been a failure of my logic I am quite happy to have it pointed out to me so that I can either clarify my point or concede that I'm wrong. You are definitely not arguing with a brick wall. Ad hominem attacks merely cheapen the debate and make you look stupid.

Hullygully · 18/11/2011 09:37

I'm sorry, Mr Pants, I just can't be bothered.

My syllogism says it all. Basic, but true.

mollschambers · 18/11/2011 09:46

I find myself becoming less leftie tbh. Although as a teen I was probably verging on Commie so it's all relative. Actually I'm trying not to think about it too much right now. To upsetting to witness the country being fucked over by Shiny Dave and Gideon.

CaptainNancy · 18/11/2011 10:01

bêtes noires

I wonder why I never come on the politics board these days... Hmm

malakadoush · 18/11/2011 14:50

Well said Hully

Ironman 230,000 daily circulation I think you'll find not 175,000.

moondog - looks like we'll just have to manage with mrpants frothing at the mouth, shitting frog spawn and begin usual rant about Tory labour filth.
Wink

breadandbutterfly · 18/11/2011 18:07

OK, MrPants, I'll try to explain where i'm coming from. Although you saying you 'despise Socialism in all its forms' is a little unhelpful as a conversation opener; much like hullygully's rude names for Tories, it doesn't really get the 'discussion' off on the right foot.

Anyway, atttempting to ignore that... Like you, I work hard. I run my own business - I also work in the public sector AND in the private sector - part time in all of them - so find this 'us v them' attitude to the public sector rather unhelpful. (For what it's worth, my public sector work pays me by far the poorest wage.)

Sometimes your remarks come across as a little like trolling - I'll take your word for it that they are not and that your views spring from a heartfelt position, as mine do.

OK. The point at which we massively diverge (- I should add, just to clear up any confusion that I am no drumbeater for New Labour either -some of the points you made above about removal of civil liberties under New Labour I have no particular beef with, and please don't attempt to attack my post by claiming New Labour were no better - no, they had many serious flaws too, and I didn't vote for them either) was this quote above:

"Please, just as a thought experiment, instead of asking what would happen if the government spent ever more lumps of your money, try thinking what would happen if the government spent less - much, much less - and let you keep the difference to spend as you saw fit."

The reason I objected to that was because I don't need some interesting hypothetical stretch of the imagination to figure out what the world would be like if the government spent less - much less - on things that really matter to me, because that is exactly what this government ARE doing. I watch the NHS being destroyed and sold piece by piece to profiteers, and I worry for my health and my family's health. I watch as universities and future students are starved of funds and worry about how my kids will be able to afford to go to university, and if they do, whether there will be anything left to make it a worthwhile experience, even if fees were reduced at some theoretical future point - a decade or more of brain drain and under-funding will have very sad consequences for our universities, and our country, that go far beyond the immediate effects on my kids. I look at the money being cut from essential local services - school transport is one that is personally going to make my life a bloody nightmare. But then I've got off lightly compared to all those relying on social care or respite care, say, that is being cut. Or the libraries, children's centres etc etc facing cuts - maybe non-essentials, but that all lay a large part in our communal well-being and quality of life.

What you appear to forget, MrPants, is that your business, that you appear to think earns a profit to support you entirely on your own, without anyone else to help you, is nothing of the kind. You rely, as we all do, on countless services provided by the state and paid for via our taxes. Without it, not only could your business not function, but your quality of life would be zilch. (I'm assuming from your description above that you are not one of the 1% ie one of the small class of multi-millionaires or billionares who really can afford your own army of mercenaries, to protect your wealth as society descends into anarchy.) Where do I start? Police, the legal system, courts, judges, juries - your business wouldn't get far without these. Infrastructure - roads, public transport, rubbish collection - again, without these, you'd find it rather hard to run a business. Trading standards to ensure you're not ripped off by suppliers. As an engineer, presumably you attended school and some kind of post-school training/education - again, probably paid by the state to a greater or lesser degree (even private schools rely on teachers largely trained in the state system, at state-run universities, and also receive hefty tax breaks). Etc etc etc ad nauseam. Are you really suggesting that next time you want to expand your business to a different part of the country, you club together with some like-minded individuals and build your own roads??

It's easy to complain about taxes but try to remember that the happiest and most economically successful countries are those like Scandinavia and Germany, which actually pay relatively high taxes and have correspondingly relatively equal societies and strong benefits. They are also highly unionised.

I do understand the appeal of paying less tax - who wouldn't like a bigger pay packet at the end of the month? But I'd challenge you to find anywhere in history or geography where a no-taxation model has actually worked. You get closer to it in Victorian Britain, for example - but you'd have to be really astonishingly self-centred to suggest that a society where children worked up chimneys was a 'better' one as you weren't paying taxes to pay for other people's children. All research has shown that the more equal society is ie the more proressive its taxation policies, the happier its people are.

Looking forward to your response.

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moondog · 19/11/2011 08:38

'All research has shown that the more equal society is ie the more proressive its taxation policies, the happier its people are.'

Really? Where is that?
Aslo, what is your definition of 'equal'.

Poor old Hully. I am cringing for you as you come across as a complete numpty. I thoguht you were a little cleverer than this.

woollyideas · 19/11/2011 09:29

Breadandbutter -fantastic post.

Moondog - Wilkinson & Pickett 'The Spirit Level' (amongst others) - and note they are not arguing for 'equal society' but a more equal society - an important distinction.

moondog · 19/11/2011 10:16

Woolly, yes, the boo kis by my bed. Next on my list to read.
What does 'more equal' mean and who decides on it.

People will never be the same.
Petty revenge and resentment that some have more than others never leads to a better system. Look to China and the former USSR (where I have spent a lot of time) to see how disastrous that was.

rycooler · 19/11/2011 10:25

What mrpants and moondog said - and why are left-wingers always so emotional and aggressive?

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 10:32

moondog - do you really think that China and the USSR are or were examples of true financial (or any other kind) of equality - as is well known, life for the party elite is and was very different to life for the ordinary workers. But to make my point clearer, look at Russia now - the most extreme, rawest kind of capitalsm possible, a kleptocracy where a few billionaires live off what ought to belong to the country as a whole (ie natural resources). Do you really think that that has been a great improvement for the majority?

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breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 10:32

By 'more equal' I mean more financially equal, nothing else. Decided in £ and p.

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breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 10:33

rycooler - so MrPants and ironman's posts were totally non-aggressive and unemotional were they? Or did you miss them?

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rycooler · 19/11/2011 10:36

Have they been throwing around the 'C' word - if they have I must have missed it - sorry.

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 10:50

moondog wrote "Oh and wondering when Newwave will start frothing at the mouth, shitting frog spawn and begin usual rant about Tory filth".

That was totally polite was it?

Do you usually describe your friends as "shitting frog spawn" do you?

I don't think you can claim it's just the left-wingers who have resorted to fairly puerile insults. No point in adding to it.

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moondog · 19/11/2011 11:05

Fairly puerile eh?
How would you define uterly puerile then?

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 11:29

Any chance of you sticking to the topic, moondog, instead of bickering?

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moondog · 19/11/2011 11:46

Unlike your good self to you mean?

twinklytroll · 19/11/2011 13:34

I think we become more left wing on certain things and more right wing on others, it is not that simple .

Coming from an impoverished working class background I am uncomfortably aware of the fact that I have a very comfortable life ( although my mumsnet standards I am a pauper ) while others have too little.

Approaching 40 I would like to pay more tax, in my 20s I wanted to pay less.

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 15:02

moondog - see my somewhat lengthy post on the topic above.

We can see from your posts on all threads that you are apparently incapable of writing anything pertaining to the topic of the thread. Shame I can't put individual posters on ignore, only whole threads.

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moondog · 19/11/2011 15:05

'By 'more equal' I mean more financially equal, nothing else. Decided in £ and p.'

So, you won't be happy until we have redistributed £££££.
That's it in a nutshell eh?
Then all will be tickety boo, yes?

breadandbutterfly · 19/11/2011 15:32

Yes, in a nutshell.

Not total redistribution required ie all exactly equal.

But more equal, ie so that everyone has enough, and everyone is rewarded appropriately for the contribution they make, yes. I'm more than happy that those who work harder and contribute more should receive more. Not happy that the current system of work v rewards is so blatantly out of kilter, no.

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