The Denigration of women in Islam.

[Arthur2]

Why is that women in this country are not more vocal about the way Islam treats women.

Take a look at 4.05 minutes, a women beaten with a baseball bat is told she must be a bad Muslim, in a so called Shari'ah court.
Women are forced to cover up so that men won't be tempted, what?
So why aren't women standing up for the oppression of women under Islam.
Genital mutilation, Forced marriage, rape within marriage.

Shari'ah courts that discriminate against women, give custody to children based on religion, not the welfare of the child.

Why are you silent on these isues.

To return to the original post - why should WOMEN be more vocal on the issues of oppressed women (wherever they be)? Isn't this an issue for EVERYONE? Surely basic freedoms and human rights should be championed by all regardless of gender?

Cattyness, my line about not thinking that i am a racist was left open... for consideration as it is clear that i am having 'non-pc' thoughts and reactions to the idea of filling in equal opps papers and i don't (in general) think of myself as a racist.

i don't think anyone thinks that people deserve bad treatment. the apparent appearance and confrontation with islam is still new in this country. when i was a girl, it was fair game to say what you wanted to black people in the street so i know what you mean about people's reactions to you. people still react to black people as automatically aggressive or as thieves, if you go into a shop, so i know some of what you mean/experience.
what i know/hear of islam is that it restricts people and i don't want anyone telling me what to do not in the name of any religion.

Flatpack:
Sorry Flatpack I misread some of what you were saying. I have no idea what IIRC is. Maybe a reformist movement. I follow the Quran and authenticated sayings of the holy prophet as we are instructed to do in the Quran which we believe is the word of god. Anything were unsure about we look to qualified scholars and when there's a difference of opinion between scholars, the prophet instructed us to go with what is easiest for us as individuals. Now the issue of head covering is mentioned explicitly in Quran. If you go for direct translation, the 'khimar' is mentioned (I will do quotes if you want me to but I'm sure you can look that up) and that refers to a head covering. There is no dispute between scholars or arabic speaking people on that. The sayings of the prophet also talk about that but some people don't like to follow them which is silly in my opinion as it is those sources that tell us how to pray, how to perform hajj etc. There is no mention of the word 'modesty' in the Quran. Modesty is relative. What I would've worn out clubbing in my student days isn't what I would've worn to the supermarket. Many Muslims don't pray, give 2.5% of their savings to charity, fast during Ramadan, so what? Does that mean its not an obligatory part of the religion? My closest friend is an atheist jew. As are plenty but I would never have the audacity to tell an orthodox person they don't need to cos I know loads of Jews who do eat it. Some people can't handle doing something religion asks of them. Thats fine. Nobody can be 'perfect'. But we don't reject original texts. Pre marital sex for example. We all get tempted, thats part of the test but we don't say oh you can have sex before marriage In this religion cos I said so. If you can't handle a particular religion, then either find one that suits you or abandon organised religion and just believe in god rather than change an existing religion to make it more palatable. That just confuses and misleads people.

Anyway There are differences of opinions as to what extent a woman should cover but I go with the easiest option for me which is the hair. 5 years ago i wasnt ready to cover my hair but I knew I was meant to. I never denied it being part of religion as I have always been well read when it comes to Islam. some women find it easier to cover face but I don't feel bad as Its not obviously mentioned. It is up to individuals what they can wear. Don't we live in a free democratic society? Why would someones kippa, turban or veil bother you? And even if a headscarf wasn't a part of religion, why does that matter? Honestly if it was the law of this land to not wear headscarf I would probably never leave the house or do what some Hasidic Jewish women do and wear wigs to cover hair as a way of fitting in but I wear western clothes, labels, handbags etc to fit in so people don't mistake me for an alien and so i feel part of society. So I do enough fitting in as far as I'm concerned. I shouldn't have to sell my soul. Please read the article by the Muslim woman I sent you. She echoes a lot of what Muslim women i know think, if you are interested.

you are right, I should have more faith. Its the internet Clouding my judgement rather than the idiots who say things in person. but I guess the same is happening to people who are buying all the crap written about Muslims. I have a seemingly lovely woman move in down the road who I don't know personally and I thought what if she's nice to my face but in reality writes the nasty stuff online. But I got over that quickly and have invited her round for later.

And sorry for the long post. And the dodgy typo it's been really difficult as I don't often type loads on this iPad with its silly auto write nonsense. Please feel free to verify what I've written incase you think I'm writing a load of tosh :)

Creghton - I didn't think that at all tbh.
Racism creates the same hatred and feelings towards people as does the stuff I'm going on about. Politically, racism is just not allowed but you can still cause similar hatred by being anti x religion. I think difference is the problem. People are afraid of what's different to them. I think being a minority having to deal with said rubbish makes me compassionate towards others. Hence I would feel like a hypocrite if I discriminated the same way people discriminate me. I don't know any black people personally but I don't discriminate, I have my religion to thank for that which also gives me the balls to stand tonpeople who make racist generalisations. I usually say "then its ok for people to say all muslims are arab terrorists?" "no but yeh but" shaap! and If there wasn't Muslims to target, it would be the next most different people, Sikh maybe. It's not like Britain was a peace haven before all the immigrants turned up. Look at the Irish, Scottish. It never ends.

Creigton, I don't mind you not liking Islam. It's not a huggable religion, as salmon Rushdie put it. I find many laws in islam and the UK law restricting but I abide by them as i feel they're for the greater good of society. Especially whilst driving. Speedlimits are bad for individuals but good for road safety.i can understand though with Islam it's more practical covering elements people don't like which I totally understand. You have to really believe in it to want to do it.

I just wanted to make the point that disliking/being fearful of Islam is not racism, since ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, it is a religion (i.e. a set of beliefs open to scrutiny and criticism in the same way as Judaism, Christianity, Scientology, Marxism, Capitalism, Fluffy Marshmallow Skygodism).

Islam has many white, Anglo-Saxon followers, black followers, Asian followers etc, so accusations of racism don't hold up and those accusations just look like the tired old method of trying to suppress debate and opinions that are different to ones own.

Er, if you read the above posts nobody accused anyone of racism here. And nobody said you couldn't criticise a belief system. It's when that criticism slides into bigotry and causes the followers of a certain belief to be physically attacked. We are talking about consequences here. The consequences are not different to racism as Creighton, who is black said she could relate to some of my experiences. Being critical of a religion is totally different to being a bigot. Bigots just need an excuse to spread their hate, you can tell by the language they use as they can't seem to refrain from insults and they don't want to be corrected If they are wrong about something (see my obove mention of man who wouldnt accept that i choose to cover and am not forced and the above links to those articles if you want).

If you were writing a critical analysis, would you use insults? You would express your opinion in a polite manner as if you are on Question Time as that's what civilised people do, dont they? If you don't think you need to refrain from offending people then it's fair game to swear and curse at whoever. If somebody is dear to you be it your wife or Jesus or allah or your pet hamster (you cant tell people who they should love btw) its not nice to have someone tell you they are a [insert offensive] however, most religious people turn the other cheek to blasphemy so im not saying stop the blasphemy, for the record. but there are the sensitive, emotional ones who get really angry (youknowwho cartoons) and go nuts. But is it worth causing that discourse in the first place if there is no real need? Thats a genuine question im putting to you as i honestly don't know the answer. I'm not asking you to 'respect' a belief system. Just think of the consquences of your actions, thats all. Accidental offending is no biggy as we are all human and most people get it as the person usually elaborates soonafter and there are many who have no tact who don't think of consequences but it is those those who deliberately want to cause problems in society in the name of free speech or the new anti-PC brigade that offends anyone they can get away with, as you see with all the false PC gone mad stories that imply muslims are offended by christmas etc thus making even civilised political correctness really unfashionable (www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas)

When you are critical of something you don't become emotional and show your prejudices. Critical people have dignity about them. If you can't tolerate a person's belief or lack of belief then how are you any better than extremists? Nobody wants special treatment, just tolerance.

Most people I know have absolutely no issue with Muslim women covering their hair. It is the full-face covering that is objected to as it is inhibitive to conversation as you can't see someone's facial expression.

Just as full-face covering is a cultural norm in some other countries, in the UK it is a cultural norm to remove any and all head coverings indoors.

This is possibly why there is such a culture clash.

The majority of white people I know would see it as downright rude and ill-mannered to wear ANY sort of head covering indoors, hat, scarf, baseball cap, anything.

I know nowadays, even lots of British people don't see it as such, but there will still be quite a few that DO.

I personally have many friends who wear a headscarf, but I find it too difficult to cultivate friendships with those women that wear a full-face covering, as it is too difficult to get 'into' a conversation with them as I cannot see their facial expressions. Over half of all communication is non-verbal, and wearing a full face covering has the effect of cutting out the majority of non-verbal communication.

If my friends that wear a headscarf admit that they find it difficult to maintain friendships with other Muslims that wear a full-face cover, how is someone NOT brought up in that culture meant to manage it?

I feel that it is perfectly possible for a woman to be a good Muslim, and follow the teachings of the Qu'ran while wearing a headscarf, while a full-face cover, in the UK, is unnecessarily divisive, and not religiously necessary.

A headscarf, yes, a full-face cover, no.

Couthymow, I love your nick! I know what you mean. I don't know anyone who wears the full face veil personally but if I did wear it myself i would feel I'm giving the message that I don't want to be approached by anyone which isn't illegal but i like to feel included iykwim. I guess they follow a stricter opinion. I cover cos I want to obey god as best as I can and also like to think my dress deters men from chatting me up (not that they would but just incase cos im a happily married lady person) but I wouldn't want men or women to be nervous to speak to me. If I wore a veil I would expect that people would be reluctant to speak to me. I like to think veiled women expect that too. I smiled at a woman (or man!) once and I knew she smiled back cos her eyes squinted but I didn't get any satisfaction from it as i would if I saw someone's face light up. I think it looks quite glam in the desert but I can see why it looks scary here cos its generally all black. I don't even like wearing black I love colour but each to their own.

Laiyan, I can't believe your actually defending a barbaric shithole that publicly executes people for things like homosexuality, apostasy and motherfucking witchcraft. Its dsuigting, I'd rather live in North Korea.

Orthdox jewish women shave their hairs, wear wigs and have to cover after they marry forever.

People are so biased to muslims when their are other faiths with similar views.