The Denigration of women in Islam.

[Arthur2]

Why is that women in this country are not more vocal about the way Islam treats women.

Take a look at 4.05 minutes, a women beaten with a baseball bat is told she must be a bad Muslim, in a so called Shari'ah court.
Women are forced to cover up so that men won't be tempted, what?
So why aren't women standing up for the oppression of women under Islam.
Genital mutilation, Forced marriage, rape within marriage.

Shari'ah courts that discriminate against women, give custody to children based on religion, not the welfare of the child.

Why are you silent on these isues.

I don't think that I'm allowed to post a link so perhaps it's a cut and past job.
Mariam Namazie say's that this does happen in the UK.

I was talking about the UK and not Saudi Arabia, their laws are their laws, when in Rome.

I know many ex muslims in the UK, many of them women who have had to go into hiding, so fearful are they at the response of their community.

Slooberus - There are actually several Muslim women MP's in the UK, so it's not really fair to generalise, or expect passing Muslims reading this thread to have a psychic link to the other Muslims at the gathering.

Arthur2 - Mariam Namazie is hardly an unbiased source is she?

Saudi women are currently fighting the driving ban, so are not in need of your condescension.

I had never heard of Maryam Namazie before, so I googled her, and found that she is the chair of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain - an organisation I was also unaware of. I must admit it did seem a little odd to me - are there also organisations for ex-Christians, ex-Hindus and so on? I am an ex-believer, but it never occurred to me to join an organisation. I just get on with my life without religion in it and let everyone else get on with theirs as they see fit.

There are more issues in leaving islam and being an ex-muslim though Alex. The recommended punishment for leaving is the death sentence, so I can see how that might be a problem you would want support for.

TBH I think all religions are bullshit but SOME FOLLOWERS of Islam are the worst for the following reasons:

They think they have the right to control women.

They think they have the right to impose their standards on others.

They think they have the right to censor what is shown and printed (Danish cartoons and Satanic verses) and respond with death threats and violence.

They think they have the right to declare an area a "gay free zone".

They think they have the right to be outraged if their views dont have precedence.

That said some of the "Born agains" in the States can give them a run for their money.

could we hazard a guess at Safia being a sunni muslim from the upper classes used to a rather different lifestyle from some of her sisters?

perhaps they could all eat cake as well while they're at it, being poor and oppressed and all that.

Mercibucket - However, if she'd said Muslim women were oppressed, then I'm sure she'd be exactly the 'right' kind of Muslim for you.

"Sure, it would be great if women could drive, but judging from the women I have met there, many of them are simply not ready for such responsibility, and what?s worse, look down upon activities where they end up doing work instead of being served. All those women you interviewed ? I challenge them to let go of their string of maids and drivers, and take charge of all the work they leave behind, including filling up their car with petrol at the station rather than getting a man to do it. They would be horrified to have to do such work."

This, and the whole of that post, makes me want to scream with frustration - women shouldn't be given equality because some of the richer ones might have to get their hands dirty filling their cars with petrol.

Stop The Revolution, we have found the compelling argument against female emancipation!

Wow. If you guys knew the real Islam and not the Islam the media likes to portray you will realise Saudi is not an Islamic state. A sharia compliant Islamic state is not formed simply by a majority Muslim population. I don't think a true islamic state will exist as people are just too twisted to follow Islam properly. That leads to unjust treatment (to Muslims aswel as non Muslims) as people are not truly religious or are lacking the intelligence (yes u need intelligence, which is why we look to proper qualified scholars to understand what islam says (take note, taking quotes in isolation people) and they bend the rules to suit themselves. I'm a very British Muslim woman who came from a very liberal muslimfamilybut a few years ago I chose to start practising my faith cos I genuinely believe in it, a religion is not like a man made law whether in Saudi or here, it's on a different level. If you don't believe in god then you will not understand the concept of religion and why people will choose to submit to an invisible 'being'call it what you will but i will try my best as i accept you for your disbelief, i even understand why you do t bellieve in god as i was like that too but i changed my mind from my own reading, not being brainwashed (I'm an educated adult ffs with reasoning skills so please don't insult me with the 'she's been brainwashed' line. I wish people would speak to true Muslims rather than whoever they see on the telly. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not. If you don't care for Islam and think all the terrorists are cos of Islam etc etc you need (well you dont NEED to do anything) to wise up and educate yourself urself but I feel people on the internet don't really want to know about the people who follow Islam properly, that's too boring! Pm me of you're genuinely interested in what I have to say, and are intelligent enough to not fall for media propaganda about Islam (not said people who happen to be 'Muslim' and just want to know the truth. if youd rather stay ignorant and revel in your misinformed media drivel then go right ahead. If you need to scapegoat a religion for society's ills then blame Islam like a flock of sheep which isn't cool considering education is about reason not following a crowd. Peace x

Kudos to laiyank for proving my point about the media sensationalism be it Saudi, Egypt or even here in the uk. Fgm! Since when was that an Islamic thing where Islam gives women equal rights to sexual pleasure. I'm sure thats a tribal African thing. So funny that people have such bigoted ideas that they want to spread their misinformation. Isn't that what hitler did with the Jews. He decided he didn't like them for whatever reason so him and his mates decided to spread a lot of hatred about them, and cos they were all sheep they fell for it. I know a local jewish rabbi in prestwich who agrees that it's the same media tact used. Do your research if you dontbelieve me.

the hatred of jew was endemic in european society, that's why it was so easy to implement a murder policy against them. it wasn't only hitler and his friends influencing people

jews not jew

Umm - laiyan I am a bit confused. I have never been to Saudi Arabia personally but I have read a lot about it (some of it written by people from Saudi Arabia rather than Westerners) and I do know others who have travelled there for various reasons.

My understanding is that it has been necessary for women who have travelled there to have a man to accompany them from the airport and to wear abayas as soon as they got off the planes (although not with full face covering). I understand that in hotels, even those owned by international companies, women guests are not allowed to use the leisure facilities such as the swimming pool/health spa etc. unless there is a specific women's facility which is generally inferior. They are only allowed to sit in "family" areas of hotels and other public places like coffee bars, for example, and sometimes have to use separate and often inferior entrances (from what I understand from reading articles written by journalists and others who have worked in the country).

These, along with driving, are all small issues individually but certainly sugggest to me that women are not treated equally to men in Saudi and that their lives are more restricted then those of men. That, to me, is discrimination whichever way you cut it.

The recent furore over women competing in the Saudi Olympics has brought to the fore the discrimination Saudi women suffer in relation to their ability to participate in sporting activities at any level - all organised sport for children adn young people is restricted to boys/men and I gather that girls do not have PE lessons at school, leading to a potentially unhealthy female population.

The young judoka who recently competed at the Olympics has been subject to some very unpleasant criticism from her home country, at the same time as plenty of support. Everything I have read about that suggests that there are both men and women in SA who would very much like things to change but are held back by the conservatives who hold sway.

So, there may be many women who are happy with the status quo or too lazy to care, as you suggest, but it appears that there are also many who would like change, and are working to make it happen, but are held back by the strength of the restrictive laws which hold sway and the sometimes brutal treatment they may suffer in the event that they try to protest in some way.

Also, you seem to be patronising in the extreme about Saudi women - not ready for the responsibility of driving? Perhaps any deficiencies in their ability to take responsibilty, if such exist, could be attributed to the fact that women are infantilised in Saudi society, passing from the jurisdiction of their fathers to their husbands or brothers and, eventually, their sons. If women were brought up from childhood to be equal members of society, perhaps they would be more able to take responsibility.

I agree with you But can you pinpoint where the hatred for the Jews started? No, it was a gradual process via sophisticated means. Isnt that what's happening with Muslims? Or am I paranoid? It just seems muslims are being scapegoated now. I can have conversations with people who don't like Islam i have many athiest friends and it just doesn't matter but there's a majority who don't like Islam and ask a question but don't wait for an answer as they're happy to carry on hating as thats more convenient. I had a man online ask me If I covered my hair cos my husband told me to and I said no, I've been uncovered most of my life and I feel better and closer to god this way plus I (personally) don't like men leering. He didn't accept that and that saddened me. France are quite proud of their veil ban. I have a non covering sister who lives there and she wants me to visit but frankly im crapping it. So forgive me if I don't see Europe as very friendly to my sort.

ttosca

^img580.imageshack.us/i/islamoppresive.jpg/^

Mmm, but which one will be punished if she changes in to the other's outfit?

Cattyness

agree with you But can you pinpoint where the hatred for the Jews started?

Centuries ago.

No, it was a gradual process via sophisticated means. Isnt that what's happening with Muslims? Or am I paranoid? It just seems muslims are being scapegoated now.

Are they? Or is it a reasonable reaction by the majority to a religion which, because of its lack of centralising creed, allows people to use it to kill?

I can have conversations with people who don't like Islam i have many athiest friends and it just doesn't matter but there's a majority who don't like Islam and ask a question but don't wait for an answer as they're happy to carry on hating as thats more convenient. I had a man online ask me If I covered my hair cos my husband told me to and I said no, I've been uncovered most of my life and I feel better and closer to god this way plus I (personally) don't like men leering. He didn't accept that and that saddened me. France are quite proud of their veil ban. I have a non covering sister who lives there and she wants me to visit but frankly im crapping it. So forgive me if I don't see Europe as very friendly to my sort.

'Not very friendly'? By what measure? You're free to dress how you choose, eat what you choose, live how you choose and practice your religion publicly.

hatred of the jews has been around since jesus' death. the christians can blame the jews for his death rather than accepting that the message of his death is that we are all responsible for it as he died for us all (if you are christian). the apparent hatred of muslims has been accelerated from ignorance about islam 20 or 30 years ago to fear/rejection/hatred now. this is due to the fast spread of information we have these days via the media and the high profile 'actions' carried out by people i.e. 9/11, 7/7 the gulf wars, the higher profile or visibility of muslims in britain now.

people see islam as a backward looking religion, most of what we hear outlines what we cannot do. people do not want to concede anything they have in country to people who they feel will stifle their freedoms.

i have to admit that if i fill in an equal opps form, i put christian even though i do not go to church and have no intention of going so that christianity is not overshadowed by other religions. i don't think of myself as racist/religionist but.....

There was a protest a few days ago at the Olympics by the group Femen who were protesting against the abuse of women by "bloody Islamist regimes" (their quote).

I think it is extremely taboo to criticise Islam in this country. I think a lot of people are scared of either being accused of being a racist or being physically attacked.

I am always surprised how much criticism and controversy the relatively small (and albeit nasty and weird) "religion" of Scientology gets in the press, yet how many people have been killed or injured in the name of Scientology in comparison to the monotheistic religions?

Oh ok I get it. We deserve it. And I love the line "I'm not racist, but"! No, I do get your point on many things really, I suppose it's easy to forget that we are all human.

Honestly though guys, when I read a story online related to Islam or a Muslim. The nice light hearted stories, I scroll down to the comments section and it depresses me what I read, bigotry is fine as long as youre directing it to Muslims. The comments are just vile, I would never dream of saying such things about people of other races or religion and these are comments that don't need to be censored, some serious hate going on. Seefor yourself. It is this sort of stuff i read that makes me fearful of going out without a man and we're living the uk, not Saudi. And i know plenty of other who feel the same. I just shouldnt be made to feel this way in a country where my husband and i contribute higher taxes than the average family yet we are scum of the earth according to readers of well known broad sheets. Some of these articles are plain lies (the woman who wore a burka in a sauna wasn't even true, she wore an Islamic swimsuit to a local pool and no complaints about it til a user made a fuss, I can give many examples but the woman in Burka in the sauna is so much more entertaining, even for me.
Anyway If you think it is justified why people feel this way or you think I'm making a fuss over nothing then good day to you x

Cattyness

Honestly though guys, when I read a story online related to Islam or a Muslim. The nice light hearted stories, I scroll down to the comments section and it depresses me what I read, bigotry is fine as long as youre directing it to Muslims. The comments are just vile, I would never dream of saying such things about people of other races or religion and these are comments that don't need to be censored, some serious hate going on. Seefor yourself.

Yes, that's the internet. People say stuff on the internet that they would never say to someone's face because there's no comeback. Forget about it. Every article has that. Go to the Guardian's website and the comments are all about murdering rich people because they're rich, or starting a Class War to purge the state of the selfish middle classes, or whatever. Go to the Independent and get the same.

It is this sort of stuff i read that makes me fearful of going out without a man and we're living the uk, not Saudi. And i know plenty of other who feel the same.

Well you, and your friends, are being ridiculous and your choice to separate yourself is causing the problem. Yes, there are a few morons out there. There always are.

I just shouldnt be made to feel this way in a country where my husband and i contribute higher taxes than the average family yet we are scum of the earth according to readers of well known broad sheets.

And as a non-socialist, I should be beaten to death according to the readers of other well-known broad sheets. As someone who works for a bank, my wife should be hanged, according to Guardian readers (and some MN readers). It's the internet, so why don't you drop the victimisation and get on with your life?

Some of these articles are plain lies (the woman who wore a burka in a sauna wasn't even true, she wore an Islamic swimsuit to a local pool and no complaints about it til a user made a fuss, I can give many examples but the woman in Burka in the sauna is so much more entertaining, even for me.

So entertaining you can't even give us a link to what on earth you're on about.

Anyway If you think it is justified why people feel this way or you think I'm making a fuss over nothing then good day to you x

I think you're looking for reasons to separate yourself. You seem to have a very low opinion of people who disagree with your interpretation of Islam - you called them 'sheep' in a post above. And if we disagree with you here, you've made it clear in this paragraph you won't discuss it.

This seems to me to be more about you than everyone else. Look at it this way. You're taking an active decision to separate yourself from mainstream culture. Why should you be treated the same way as everyone else when you've no respect for anyone who doesn't share your view?

Please tell me how I'm separating myself from mainstream culture? I don't understand what you mean. Im no hermit if thats what youre implying. Is there something wrong with having a fear cos you think someone might get attacked for being a muslim (woman) I have not been physically attacked yet but know women who have had their scarves tugged at, is that acceptable? Or should we not wear scarves?!. i've lost count the number if times I've heard someone mutter "terrorist" under their breath when we're out in town but you get used to it. Do you condone that? is it not sensible for me to be prepared for the worst? I don't disrespect people who don't share my views, I'm not insecure, I just have a problem with people who choose to remain ignorant about islam or anything and it is real people who suffer the consequences in their daily lives which is why I don't really dialogue with people like that as its like getting blood out of a stone as I mentioned about the man I spoke with online. You dont seem to acknowledge what goes on online affects the situation 'on the ground' and that stance is no better than terrorists themselves. I deserve these attacks just as much the uk deserves to get attacked. Seriously I have more respect for people that say "I hate Muslims" But zero for those that go the roundabout way saying "I hate Islam not Muslim" when it blatantly sends the same message anyway I think when people like you get your head out of the clouds you might take women like me seriously and before you suggest to move to Saudi, no, I've just as much right to be here as you do. I'm not an immigrant here on a work visa ffs.

I find this entire thread ironic. Too many people concerned with women in Saudi but not interested to hearcwhat Muslim women wearing headscarves have to deal with here in the UK. Hypocrisy. Which is nothing new and sick of the double standards on here. If you want to discuss it pm. I will send you the link for those articles in abit.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/1253862.row_over_fullydressed_woman_in_sauna/

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/apr/20/fashion.religion

I have just come back from living in Saudi arabia and must take issue with some ofyour points Laiyan.
I never saw women without an abaya, the religious police even follow white women around telling them to cover their heads. Never saw girls that were maturing into women with abayas open
Public trAnsport?? A taxi and thats it.
Women would like the CHOICE whether to drive or not.

attyness

Please tell me how I'm separating myself from mainstream culture? I don't understand what you mean. Im no hermit if thats what youre implying. Is there something wrong with having a fear cos you think someone might get attacked for being a muslim (woman)

Is the fear a rational one?

I have not been physically attacked yet but know women who have had their scarves tugged at, is that acceptable?

I don't think it is.

Or should we not wear scarves?!.

Well IIRC Islam doesn't say women should wear scarves, it says that both men and women should dress modestly. The scarf is a cultural outfit, not a religious one. If it were a religious one all muslim women would wear it. If that is the case, then the scarf is a visible symbol of your 'difference'. Silly people will react to that just as they react to goths (for example).

i've lost count the number if times I've heard someone mutter "terrorist" under their breath when we're out in town but you get used to it. Do you condone that?

No, and I don't know why you'd imagine that I would.

is it not sensible for me to be prepared for the worst?

It's what you're defining as 'the worst' that I have a problem with. You're creating a mental climate of fear when there may not be a reason to have one. Perhaps I'm not in a position to judge, but in my experience people who go around expecting the worst often have it happen to them.

I don't disrespect people who don't share my views, I'm not insecure, I just have a problem with people who choose to remain ignorant about islam or anything and it is real people who suffer the consequences in their daily lives which is why I don't really dialogue with people like that as its like getting blood out of a stone as I mentioned about the man I spoke with online.

It's clear that your faith is important to you, but it isn't important to everyone, and so if people are 'choosing to remain ignorant about islam' then they're doing so because it's irrelevant to their day-to-day life. But people will be curious and that's inevitable. Those questions about your faith and the very visible symbols of it are going to come when you talk to people. Surely that's a chance to educate them?

You dont seem to acknowledge what goes on online affects the situation 'on the ground' and that stance is no better than terrorists themselves.

I've been on the internet for a very long time, and I really don't think it has as much influence as you put on it. Those commenters on websites are a tiny, tiny proportion. Their influence is insignificant.

I deserve these attacks just as much the uk deserves to get attacked.

And both sets of pointless attacks will continue until everyone gets a grip.

Seriously I have more respect for people that say "I hate Muslims" But zero for those that go the roundabout way saying "I hate Islam not Muslim" when it blatantly sends the same message anyway I think when people like you get your head out of the clouds you might take women like me seriously and before you suggest to move to Saudi, no, I've just as much right to be here as you do. I'm not an immigrant here on a work visa ffs.

Maybe I am being naive in thinking that people are better than that. In my view, they are. That's the trouble with religion in my opinion, having faith in god gets in the way of having faith in people.