Richest students to pay for extra places at UK's best universities

[breadandbutterfly]

The bastards.

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/may/09/universities-extra-places-richest-students?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

Everyone does realise that the idea was shelved, don't they? It was a 'The Thick of It' style semi-announcement of a policy which, after the fuss generated, was dispensed with smartish. Sort of focus group via Today Prog.... :)

Or was it?

Because everything the Tories say is true isn't it? (Not touch the NHS, no cuts to frontline staff, blah de blah). To say nothing of the Lib Dems (don't even need to spell this one out, do I).

What they say they're going to not do and what they do are only so slightly related. The main relationship is what they say they're not going to do gives us a little window into what they'd really like to do, but aren't sure if they'll ge away with easily, or if they'll have to wear us down first...

I genuinely think that some of these proposals look good on paper... like the forestry one... but, if the reaction is particularly emotional, it's a cue for some of the less important ones to be quietly smothered or sent back to the drawing board. I've not been disappointed with the Tories so far because they've done pretty much what I've expected (and the local election results suggest that I'm not on my own in that assessment). The LDs I never rated because they were only ever a protest party - all wind and piss. I don't expect absolute truth from any government because times change and plans have to change with them. But if the coalition is big enough to admit they've got it wrong occasionally and shelve a poor idea, then I don't see the problem

I cannot see what the problem is - on the contrary, if a Singaporean (for example) can pay for a place to read medicine at a top British university, why on earth should a British student be prevented from doing so?

The problem only arises if the Singaporean has a different entry threshold to the Brit. If they do, and it's lower, then maybe a Brit should also be allowed to pay or better, the Singaporean should be denied access. If however, as I think most institutions would like us to believe, the Singaporean has to be at least as good as the Brit in order to gain a place, then any Brit also meeting the entry criteria should have have access to the same amount of government support/loans for the course (with extra support for poorer students).

I know some universities rely quite heavily on foreign students to boost their coffers, but I don't think any of them admit to having lower entry thresholds for them. Of course, due to foreigners having different education systems this is difficult to prove.

And why shouldn't the entry thresholds be lower for students paying over the odds? As long as the students have the brains and previously-honed academic skills to keep up with the course, it doesn't bother me if universities add on extra places on courses at extra cost for those willing to pay more than the cost of education.

"As long as the students have the brains and previously-honed academic skills to keep up with the course" This is the key thing or the quality of the courses will suffer. The easiest way of ensuring it happens, and to maintain the high quality of our courses, is to have a single entry threshold. As we seem to have enough highly able foreign students willing to pay without compromising entry standards I see no reason to do so.

But the best universities turn away a lot of amply qualified students every year - and admissions is hardly an exact science. Plus, there is a lot of evidence that the more students pay for their course, the harder they work. So if a university department were letting in some "borderline" (but still excellent) students with the proviso that they had to pay through the nose for the privilege, you might get some excellent and very hard working additions to your course.

Of course they turn away borderline candidates, you have to draw the line somewhere. But elite establishments simply wont stay elite and maintain the highest standards if they start selecting on anything other than ability. Being bright enough to access the course isn't the same thing as being someone who really stands out and shines on their course. The tail can wag the dog and conversely more very bright students raises the bar for everyone. However marginally, accepting lower calibre students because they can pay more will dilute standards. Arguably £9k per year is more than enough to ensure students work hard once there in any case imo.

Of course the whole issue of how they distinguish between who is above and who is below their cut-off threshold and how accurate that selection is is a whole different matter, but a fixed cut-off is ideally what is needed and what they should aim for. And then because their standards are so good they will have plenty of first class overseas students applying who are both very bright and can pay more.

Do you have a link for that Bonso? I think it is more likely that rich students who have paid 'through the nose' will feel entitled to higher grades. They would be more likely to put financial pressure on lecturers and universities to give them high grades, (not though studying harder).

A university where some students are paying much more would have a 'perverse incentive' to pass that student even if the student is sub standard.

Moreover, I think a poor student paying 9K a year will be more motivated than a rich one whose mummy and daddy pick up the whole tab.

Does anyone else think that the regular attempts to tweak the situation the coalition opted for from 2012 is a sure indication that the government realises it has painted itself into a corner, forced through a deeply unpopular and retrogressive policy and now finds that this stupid move is also not economically viable for our economy, being as the high tuition fees' funding has to be provided upfront in the form of thousands of massive loan?

I get the strong impression that the govt is thrashing around, increasingly desperately looking for ways to reduce the economic detriment to the UK economy of this enormous, socially divisive cockup.

@dotnet "Cock up" is the expression I was thinking of.I see the Government's latest idea is for cut price degrees to be offered through the clearing system to help fill up under subscribed courses. Those who will be hanging on to get on to these courses will probably be the least well off as they try and avoid the £9,000 yearly fee. Also, someone who's already undertaken to pay the original £9,000 fee could be studying alongside someone who's secured a cut price place. How divisive. I doubt whether the govt. has really thought the tuition fees policy through. Is it too much to ask for them to govern the country in a professional manner?

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/universities-slam-willetts-cutprice-degrees-scheme-2283228.html

Hi Cate - well, the one ray of hope is that the whole tuition fees thing clearly has NOT been accepted - it is still a hot potato, talked about at some point on the radio every day - they've just finished talking about it on 'Any Questions' (R4) just now, for example. Incidentally if you want to listen to 'Any Questions' on 'Listen Again' - there's a man with a very posh voice who put REALLY clearly the way I feel about the whole bloody fiasco (but can't express as lucidly).

I actually don't think it WILL roll into operation, this sky high fees thing, the way Cameron and co would be happy for it to. I'm on the edge of my seat watching to see how things might develop. Surely our kids won't, ultimately, be shafted the way Cameron envisages?

I've always thought it was rather unfair foreign students have a different system. They still need their AAA or whatever for decent places but are not competing in quite the same way.

There are certainly a lot of problems with the new fee system because so few will repay the loans so it doesn't work as planned. One solution is encourage more to pay upfront.

'if you want to listen to 'Any Questions' on 'Listen Again' - there's a man with a very posh voice who put REALLY clearly the way I feel about the whole bloody fiasco (but can't express as lucidly).'

He was the author, A.N. Wilson. He is always forthright and never doffs his cap. You can read more of his views in his column in the Daily Mail.

Oh well if he has a very posh voice he must be right, HAHAHA!

I agree its not economically viable, the government's thrashing around over every policy seems to 'policy by press release'.

What a mess, I hope it doesnt come into operation.

Let's hope they can thrash around until we've had a chance to vote them out and get rid of this policy totally.

I say hope - not sure I trust Labour either to not just cosy up to the rich...

Remind me who the party is again that represents the interests of normal working people...?

Damnit. Greens?

"not sure I trust Labour not to just cosy up to the rich"

snort

they pissed away your money, how much more does it take?

Well Ill stick with Lib dems for now, hopefully they are adjusting to the situation and improving. Just need to keep the pressure on, and for them to keep challenging any crazy plans that come up.

Having a tory government is so tiring! like watching 300 toddlers.

Top uni's admit loads of 'nice but dim types'
This is a bad idea

Hi HHLimbo! Yes I cottoned on a bit later that it had been A N Wilson. What a very good egg he is, on the matter of tuition fees at least!

What a scary situation it is for parents and children of the 'wrong' age... by 'wrong', I mean Upper V1 form - current year 13 - next academic year.

My old next door neighbours have two children, both bright, one in year 11 now, the other, year nine I think. One working (teacher) parent. They won't be happy at their kids becoming debtors to the tune of around £45,000 counting in living expenses as well, when they leave school and start higher education.
My dd who is a student, has admitted to me that she feels guilty at being so happy and relieved that she got her university place before the fees debt monster is scheduled to be unleashed to prey on freshers.

It will be interesting to see how 2012 and onwards pans out. I've two to come through the system.