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Original poster

impossible to find impartial explanations of AV!

54 replies

ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 09:34

the "no to AV" leaflets make a compelling case. I dont really want my remaining votes spread across the other parties. I dont want my third place to win.

BUT...

the "yes to AV" campaign is also very convincing. there were three local parties in the last election that I would have happily voted for.

please help me decide!

OP posts:
BeakerTheMuppetMuppet · 22/04/2011 09:39

i don't understand why the Tory party are against it tbh, they didn't 'win' the last election did they?

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 09:42

exactly beaker. i dont know why it has to be "first past the post" surely majority should rule. end of.

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 22/04/2011 12:46

If you go for a simple majority you would dispense with the idea of constituencies all together, go for a one-man-one-vote system nationally and then allocate the MPs accordingly from an approved list. That would be 'PR' or proportional representation and it's how we run the European elections. It's the fairest system on paper but has downsides e.g. without Googling can you name your Euro MP?... :)

If you stick with the idea of constituencies and want to find the candidate that the majority are happy with, there's really not much to choose between AV and FPTP. In a 'safe seat' the candidate is likely to poll adequate votes on the first pass and second/third votes wouldn't come into play. In a marginal seat where a lot of tactical voting goes on under FPTP, the tactical voting would simply convert to 2nd/3rd place voting.

BTW... under an AV system you can just indicate your first choice and leave the others blank. Then you don't get double-counted.

lunafire · 22/04/2011 12:51

Have you seen the official electoral commission leaflet? Good basic info about how both systems work.

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 12:54

ah chil, thank you! I didnt know you could leave it blank, I assumed that would be tantamount to soiling your ballot. I know that the biggest argument against AV is that it would give extremist parties a better footing, is that a realistic fear?

OP posts:
lunafire · 22/04/2011 12:59

Given that the BNP are in favour of a No vote I shouldn't think so Choc

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 13:03

phew Grin it just seems that both systems are overly complicated. I am a labour voter, but accept that the Tories should be in power because they had most votes.

might just go on the 5th and scrawl vote for PR on the bottom of the ballot Wink

OP posts:
IngridBergman · 22/04/2011 13:05

i don't understand it at all. Is there anywhere you can get an actual, basic, words of one syllable explanation? I think we had that leaflet through the door so will go and look...atm I dont think I'll be taking part because I just have no clue whatsoever, the current system is a total mystery to me.

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 13:20

this is good but I dont think there IS an easy way to explain it Confused

OP posts:
IngridBergman · 22/04/2011 13:29

Thanks Lissie, that's a great link and makes a lot of sense. Have decided I'm definitely pro!

IngridBergman · 22/04/2011 13:30

Anything that's got almost EVERYONE's vote apart from the tories and the BNP has to be a good thing...

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 13:37

Add message | Report | Message poster IngridBergman Fri 22-Apr-11 13:30:59
Anything that's got almost EVERYONE's vote apart from the tories and the BNP has to be a good thing...

well, when you put it like that... Grin

OP posts:
IngridBergman · 22/04/2011 13:38

Party by party as linked from the original link you posted, Lissie.

ChippingInLovesEasterEggs · 22/04/2011 13:43

I think (not that anyone's asking!) that the system that Chil described works well. It's the same as the NZ system and it's fair.

AV or not to AV - I'm still on the fence. I'll think about it more while scraping old pain/plaster/crap off of the walls Grin

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 13:48

lol chipping, Im pondering whilst not packing!

OP posts:
lunafire · 22/04/2011 14:18

AV is easy to explain...basically it's like sending your DH to the shops for some choccy for you and saying I'll have a Mars bar please...but if they don't have any I'll have a Twix instead Smile

GiddyPickle · 22/04/2011 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
ChocolateCoveredlissielou · 22/04/2011 14:35

Add message | Report | Message poster lunafire Fri 22-Apr-11 14:18:24
AV is easy to explain...basically it's like sending your DH to the shops for some choccy for you and saying I'll have a Mars bar please...but if they don't have any I'll have a Twix instead
Add message | Report | Message poster GiddyPickle Fri 22-Apr-11 14:31:02
My 3rd choice would be a packet of Rollos. It doesn't mean I want them though. They are small and irritating and get stuck in your teeth.

If I can't have a Mars Bar then I don't really care which third best or 4th best option he comes home with instead - I'm still going to be annoyed give him a kick.

I think between you, thats the best explanation yet!

OP posts:
ChippingInLovesEasterEggs · 22/04/2011 15:12

Lunafire - but ending up with a Fry's bar because both DH and the shopkeeper thought it would be better for you.

Chil1234 · 22/04/2011 15:33

It's not just the Conservatives and BNP that are asking us to vote 'no' incidentally. Milliband is rather out on his own in the Labour party asking us to vote 'yes'. Plenty of his MPs are in the 'no' camp. John Reid (about as Labour as they come) campaigning with the PM last week was certainly an interesting partnership!

The FPTP system favours the established main parties of Labour and Conservative because, most of the time, the result will be a straight majority for one of those two. 2010 was an unusual but not unprecedented result. So you'd expect established Labour and Conservative MPs to want to retain the status quo. The Lib Dems always want PR because they tend to come second in a lot of seats and therefore never have enough MPs to form a government. Their gamble is that, in marginals, if Labour voters place them 2nd and Conservative voters place them 2nd they'll pick up extra seats by default..

As for minority parties going through on the 2nd and 3rd counts, it's technically possible. But they would have to poll enough votes in the first round of counting not to be eliminated and then they'd have to be a good 2nd on a lot of ballot papers. What is not in question is that minority parties would get allocated a proportionate amount of seats under PR.

HHLimbo · 22/04/2011 15:33

The major problem with the current system FPTP is that people can be elected with a minority of the vote. Some people get elected when less than 3 out of 10 people voted for them. This is not democratic, because most people actually didnt vote for them.

So youve got friends round for BBQ, theres 10 of you. DH goes to the shop to get choccy (they only do multipacks).

2 say mars
2 say twix
2 say rolo
1 says a bar of choc
3 dont feel like chocolate and they ask for starburst.

FPTP
Result: DH gets starburst! because they got most votes Angry - thats 7 angry people at your BBQ!

AV:

The one with least votes gets dropped each time
(so 1 bar of choc -> +1 mars. 2 rolo -> +1 twix, +1 mars. 3 twix -> +3 mars)
Total: 3 for starburst, 7 for mars.
Result: DH gets mars! 7 people happy, 3 are meh.

Most people are happier under AV.
Vote for AV, vote for happiness.
:)

GiddyPickle · 22/04/2011 15:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HHLimbo · 22/04/2011 16:12

So the party elected got 53% of the votes. Id say that most people are happier there. Better than if a party got elected on 37%.
(of course there are still better systems, e.g. AV+, but we have to take things one step at a time.)

So you see, it works:
Most people are happier with AV.
Vote for AV, vote for happiness
:)

GiddyPickle · 22/04/2011 16:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HHLimbo · 22/04/2011 19:51

Whatever niggles you have Giddy, it is clear that AV is a better, fairer, more democratic system than FPTP.