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Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AV or not ?

334 replies

theoldbrigade · 20/04/2011 19:00

Thoughts please.

OP posts:
Paul88 · 28/04/2011 17:32

BUT

AV allows people to start voting for smaller parties without throwing away their vote. As a result, with time, smaller parties stand a chance of getting some seats.

AV is fairer in various situations.

Giddy: why are you so against it? I can't see any reason to vote NO except to punish Clegg... and he is not going to last long anyway

GiddyPickle · 28/04/2011 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GiddyPickle · 28/04/2011 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Paul88 · 28/04/2011 20:48

It is certainly true that a large number of people don't vote Green because their vote will end up in the bin. We will only find out how many if we make the change to AV.

Other parties only get our second preference votes if we put them second.

I am sure that there are many who would put green then tory as well as those who would put green then labour. There are even voters out there who would put BNP then labour.

I am disappointed GiddyPickle that after all the research you have obviously done you are rolling out the "small party holds balance of power and decides who wins". You know very well it doesn't work like that. If a bunch of voters put party E first then party B, and E is redistributed causing B to overtake A, that is good and the whole point of AV. Instead of the E+B vote being split allowing A in with possibly well under 50% of the vote which happens in FPTP, B gets in.

I have yet to see an example where FPTP gives a fairer result than AV.

You've rolled out the claim of tactical voting again when everybody else agrees that there will be less tactical voting under AV - the only example I could find on the whole internet where tactical voting would get a better outcome for someone was one where you have to know everybody else's vote to make that decision.

Very safe seats will always be very safe seats - there is nothing unfair about that.

Most people believe AV will increase turnout.

The one real issue you have raised is that of more spoiled papers: I sincerely hope that if AV happens that papers with a single X in a box will be treated as a first preference for that party and that other such sensible judgements are allowed - e.g. a 1 and two 2's - the 1 is allowed to count and the paper only treated as spoilt if that party is redistributed.

But I think the number of people who can't write 1,2,3,... is small enough to make this a change worth having.

No it isn't PR - but it is the fairest way of electing a single constituency MP, so we should use it.

GiddyPickle · 28/04/2011 22:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Missingfriendsandsad · 29/04/2011 06:25

'I work for London Elects, which ran the election. I'd like, if possible, to set everybody's mind at rest. There were 412,054 rejected 2nd choice votes; however, 407,840 (99%) were rejected because no vote had been cast for the 2nd choice. All of these voters will have had their first choice counted. Voters have the right to choose not to cast a 2nd choice vote. The number of "traditional" spoiled papers (voting for too many etc) was actually under 1% on the 2nd preference and 1.67% on the first - this is "normal" for an election'

Stop scaremongering giddy.

GiddyPickle · 29/04/2011 22:50

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Missingfriendsandsad · 30/04/2011 18:08

In UK AV you can make a cross for one candidate or a 1 for one candidate, then if you want to express preferences you can.

In fact accepting 1 for X has been done for some time now in normal counts. I think the appeal that 'people won't know how to vote' is scaremongering - some people (about 1-2%) either intentionally or otherwise spoil ballots. In australia there is an additional deliberate protest about compulsory voting which results in a slightly higher percentage. WE WILL NOT BE HAVING COMPULSORY VOTING in the UK

Spidermama · 04/05/2011 09:38

I want AV because David Cameron doesn't.

DuelingFanjo · 04/05/2011 10:09

I am not sure why anyone would vote for something they think is a miserable compromise. Most people I know seem toi be voting yes but they all say it's not what they wanted. Personally I think we're more likely to get proper PR in the future by voting no to this. Though deep down I ubderstand and prefer first past the post moch more than I do PR/AV.

DuelingFanjo · 04/05/2011 10:26

"Its surprising that we still have FPTP - a system where someone can be elected with only 10% of the vote.

AV ensures that an MP has the support of at least 50% of voters - this is essential if we want to describe ourselves as a democracy"

This is what confuses me. Say if there were 6 candidates and one (A) got 40% and the others (B - F) all got 12%, under each system who would get in? wouldn't the result be the same ubder both systems or is it possible that candidate B might get 38 - 100% of the second vote and so would get in even though candidate A got more first votes than anyone else?

sorry if this is a stupid question.

GastonTheLadybird · 04/05/2011 10:49

Not sure if it has been posted but this YouTube video explains pretty well why I'm .

It's pretty clear by now that the country isn't voting/going to vote yes unless extraordinary turnout in young/London voters. For me it is less about the specifics of the electoral system, neither AV or FPTP are perfect, but about expressing an appetite for a more representative democracy. Saying no to AV and yes to FPTP are essentially giving politicians a licence to put electoral reform back in the cupboard and not get it out again for generations.

And just on a more practical note, it is STUPID having a two party electoral system in a multi party political sphere. It just doesn't make sense to keep it.

Paul88 · 04/05/2011 10:53

In your example, under FPTP A gets in.

Under AV it would be decided on second/third/... preferences. Lets assume they don't get exactly the same number of votes - say B does better than C, etc, down to F.

F gets eliminated and the votes shared out. The end result now will be exactly as if F had never stood. Or if you ran another election immediately without F.

Unless A gets over the 50% in the first round, the same thing happens to E, etc, etc.

In answer to your question, YES: it is possible that B will end up winning. B can overtake A if enough of C,D,E,F's supporters put B above A.

Is this fair? I think so. In this situation if A and B went head to head, B would win. So why should A get elected just because a bunch of small parties also stood?

GastonTheLadybird · 04/05/2011 10:54

Dueling

Candidate A - 40%
B - 10%
C - 10%
D- 10%
E - 10%
F - 10%
G - 10%

(changed it to 10% for ease)

Candidate A would win as there would be unable to be any elimination as no least popular party as I understand it. However, chance of six candidates getting exactly the same number of votes happening is absolutely minimal.

However, if you changed all of the above figures by 1% to give us candidates to eliminate any of candidates B-G could win. B could win if it had second preferences from all voters C-G for example as B would be the most broadly acceptable candidate.

Paul88 · 04/05/2011 10:54

That was for fanjo

  • and no, not a stupid question, the amount of misinformation going around is enormous...
DuelingFanjo · 04/05/2011 11:07

"F gets eliminated and the votes shared out"

so even though people voted actively for F those votes would be split up and given to all the other candidates? How is that fair?

DuelingFanjo · 04/05/2011 11:10

or am I failing to understand? blimey it really is confusing isn't it.

surely the second vote is a 'well, if I have to vote for someone else I guess I'd pick this person if only to keep out someone I dislike' kind of vote?

Paul88 · 04/05/2011 11:25

F is a clear loser - with fewer votes than anyone else.

By sharing out F's votes based on second preference you get the same result as if F had never stood. Seems fair to me.

GastonTheLadybird · 04/05/2011 11:38

You don't HAVE to put a second preference if you don't want to, under AV you should only number candidates who you would find acceptable as your MP.

GastonTheLadybird · 04/05/2011 11:38

Oh and this video is a bit silly but it illustrates the system pretty clearly...

WinkyWinkola · 04/05/2011 12:25

"so even though people voted actively for F those votes would be split up and given to all the other candidates? How is that fair?"

Because those who voted for F would have their votes shared out amongst the candidates they had chosen as their second, third etc choices.

I would actually rather my second or third choices get in than someone I really really didn't want to get in.

yelloutloud · 04/05/2011 13:03

Misinformation is always huge when the argument is weak. It's such a simple system. If you only like one candidate then only vote for one person. If you have a preference- which a lot of people do then put them in order, it happens all the time in life and conservative leadership elections. I am fed up of governments with minority share of the vote - is that really democracy? YES YES YES ( in no particular order).

dingdong89 · 04/05/2011 16:31

I'm voting 'yes'.

DrNortherner · 04/05/2011 18:02

It's a NO from me. I'd rather we have a government with a majority, whether that be my party or not.

DuelingFanjo · 04/05/2011 18:37

the cat video - why does it make all the parties look like they are just different versions of the same thing?