AV or not ?

[theoldbrigade]

Thoughts please.

I'll vote No.
I think - on the whole - you are a bit more likely to get what it says on the tin if they get in by FPTP. If someone gets in because of second or third or fourth round distributions in the vote, to whom to they owe their vote, and therefore their policies? What do they stand for by the end of so many rounds?

A manifesto is the only real way we have to decide though. To me it is a "wish list" not a promise. Elected with a large majority happy days, a minority government and things can get messy, a coalition and shit hits fan.

We don't as a nation like coalitions full stop. All far too much icing and no cake IMO.

How can the population oppose a policy when nobody understands what the policy is ?

As to tuition fees - do not get me started !!!

Giddy, I know what you're saying. But I'm not intrinsically against coalitions so that aspect of PR doesn't bother me at all. Most of the coalitions we'[ve had since WWI have done pretty well, often in times of great stress and European examples show that coalitions can work and not work, depdneing on circumstances at partiular times. Just like FPTP.

People behind NO = Tory's sleaziest backers, Rupert Murdoch and his media, Tax Payer's Alliance (who want to reduce taxes paid by business) and the BNP. Largely a tory campaign but enhanced by the more right wing.

David Cameron support No because of the wealthy backers, but was elected himself under AV and would have lost if the leadership election were First Past the Post. Just shows how duplicitous the guy is.

For me, the best reason to vote Yes is that it will destabilise the conservative party, and see camerons losing the faith of his party. The conservatives this time round are just not ready for government - they don't understand economics, they don't understand the will of the people or have the integrity to keep to manifesto policies. Best example is that they allowed universities to raise fees, which means the loan expenditure by the treasury will be £450million more than it was preeviously - so much for cuts! Dafties.

It shouldn't be get the tories out, it should be get the dafties out!!

FYI most countries in the world use someonthing other than First Past the post - it is the fastest declining election system in the world - we are backing a losing horse! FPTP 35 countries number of democratic countries - 150 or so...

Note the same government wants to use AV to vote in new police commissioners 'to ensure they have the widest support' hypocracy or what!!!!

First Past the post is the last remnant of the 'old men in grey suit' politics .

The list of public figures who support and pay for the No campaign has made it very, very easy for me to decide to vote Yes.
Also the sheer brainless quality of the No propaganda...complete logic failures, many times over.

Yes

Missingfriend, I think we can debate that the conservatives don't understand economics. Especially when you look at what Gordon Brown did!

The example you cite is also a bit strange. Yes, the government of course must fund more student loans but these are LOANS. ie. they must be paid back. In addition, they no longer have to give universities so much money so they can save money they otherwise would never have seen. And you call them dafties???

For me the no vote wins not because of which political party I like but more because AV was proposed because the lib dems want PR. Well....erm this is not PR and even Clegg himself says its a "miserable little compromise". So why vote for something which isn't going to do what the people who want it the most to do.

I have had 2 phone calls from the AV campaigning organisation asking me how I'm going to vote and whether I've sent off my postal vote yet. the first phone call was innocuous but the second caler tried to argue the toss with me about the AV versus the first past the post vote, which I really object to as it is unethical in my view and may even be illegal for all I know. The fact that he knew I had a postal vote made me feel veryuneasy. I thought these things were confidential.

Can we have a link to most australians want to go back to FPTP please?

You'll be looking a long time for a genuine link - there was one poll that said 'do you like the current way of voting' after a really unpopular result in one consituency and that 'curent way of voting' included compulsory voting and compulsory preferences for all candidates. Cameron used this one rogue poll that had a different result than all the other satisfaction polls ever taken and extrapolated a local result to the whole country - that is the kind of politician we have running the country.

Re crystal - OH No! the ultimate fear! having to explain your decision! :) IN all elections this information is given to all political parties - who has postal votes, who is on the electoral roll etc - The AV lot have loads of volunteers but not much money which is why they are using phoning - the No campaing in funded by some of the richest and most right wing backers in politics (doesn't that tell you something about who benefits from FPTP!) which is why they are paying milliions of pounds to get royal mail posted leaflets to everyone in the country.

(also that is how they are going to pay for the children's hospital wing, 100,000 bullet proof vests, more beat bobbies and more nurses if they win!)

re nice guy are you serious?! You are saying that the Universities won't need so much money from the government because the government is paying for loans to students to pay higher fees.. the government is paying less to universities because the government is giving more money to universities?!?!

Only about 40% of student loans are being paid back 5 years after graduation. Less that 45% get paid back at all!

actually why am I surprised.. people who are blind tend to stay blind. Peopl who aer tory don't change - that 30% of the country who are now running it...

I'm voting Yes to AV, with No as my second choice

Living in a town with an English Democrat party mayor who got in via taking into account 2nd votes, I shall be voting no.

This student guide has some factual evidence and useful links.

ooh! found a facebook ad wtih a good video!..

No - FPTP is far from perfect, but I don't think AV will make up for its shortcomings.

Many MPs in safe seats already have more than 50% of the votes anyway, so don't think it'd make that much of a difference in terms of some areas getting pretty well ignored in campaigning. I appreciate that there would be more marginals, and that perhaps people would vote differently if they felt it the outcome wasn't such a forgone conclusion, but I think in lots of areas all you would get would be suggestions as to how to rank your preferences tactically to ensure your first choice got in rather than any real attempts to address the issues that matter to the voters.

Also, think it's quite likely that many people will only vote for one or two canditates anyway rather than ranking them all. This means that the winner wouldn't necessarily get 50% of the votes. My fear is that after a while, it will be decided that you must rank all canditates for your vote to count like in parts of Australia and there are certain parties (BNP anyone?) that I wouldn't vote for even if they were my 10000 choice!

My only concern is that I appear to be in agreement with Michael Howard on this issue, but I suppose there's a first time for everything!! Seriously though, I think this is something that goes beyond party lines and should be considered in light of the impact of any change rather than as a vote of confidence/no confidence in any particular party or politician.

If it was a choice between FPTP and PR however, think I'd still be dithering as can see valid arguments for and against both......

Voting no. It doesn't seem fair to me that some people get their second or third votes counted and others don't. Gives too much of a say to the supporters of unpopular fringe parties.