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Politics

The debt & deficit

81 replies

newwave · 13/04/2011 22:21

C & P from CIF (Guardian site)

Part of an article by Jonathan Freedland

It's not Labour profligacy that caused the deficit ? if the last government was spending too much why did the Tories promise, until summer 2008, to match its largesse? Labour needs to become as tireless at making this case as the coalition is at repeating, ad nauseam, that it "inherited this mess".

A posters reply which I found convincing

Absolutely. The only way to galvanise opposition to the government is to expose the fiction that the UK?s current economic problems are the result of high taxes and overspending and thus undermine the Tories? only justification for austerity measures. These are the facts which George Osborne doesn?t want us to know because they expose the Great Tory Debt Lie:

Fact 1: Average annual taxation as a % of GDP was lower in the years 1997- 2010 (35.4%) than in the years 1980-1997 (35.5%) as was average annual public spending (40% and 38%).

Fact 2: The national debt was higher in 57 years of the 20th century than in 2010, when it was 52% of GDP. In 1945 it was 237% of GDP and yet Attlee's post-war Labour government was able to bear the costs of introducing the welfare state and nationalising the railways, the public utilities and the coal and steel industries. Maybe that was because in 1945 we really were "all in it together".

Fact 3: As Osborne admitted to the Treasury Select Committee, in 2010 the UK's national debt was the second lowest of the G7 countries and, at less than 60% of GDP net of bank assets, is within Maastricht Treaty limits. It is expected to peak at around 73%. Germany is already above that level and is expected to exceed 80% in 2013. The debt levels of Japan and Italy exceed 100% of GDP.

Fact 4: In June 2010, the budget deficit was under £155 billion, well below the Treasury's £178 billion estimate made six months earlier. In other words, the deficit was narrowing after Labour increased spending in 2009.

Fact 5: The budget deficit is no more ?structural? than an overdraft in your bank account when you spend more than you earn. There is either a real deficit or not, and if there is, then it is due to either excessive spending or an inadequate tax take. Since it can easily be demonstrated that the problem is not the former, then it must be the latter ? which is around 36% compared to an EU average of 40%, has been adversely affected by the financial crisis and consequent recession, and is likely to be further aggravated when taxes are cut later during this parliament to the benefit of high earners, corporations and banks.

Fact 6: Even if you accept the idea of a ?structural? deficit, this was only 3.5% of GDP in 2007, compared with the last Conservative government?s structural deficits of 5.2% in 1992, 6.6% in 1993, 6.2% in 1994, 5.6% in 1995 and 4% in 1996. Similarly, the last 3 Labour governments managed to earn enough to cover their spending for 3 of their 13 years in office, whereas Thatcher and Major only managed to balance the books for 2 out of 17 years.

Fact 7: Osborne's claim that the UK is in danger of having its Triple AAA credit rating downgraded ignores the fact that the UK government is a reliable borrower with zero chance of defaulting, since most of its debt is held by financial institutions in the UK over a very long period of time and at very low interest rates. In fact, according to economist Ray Barrell (National Institute Economic Review, January 2010), government interest payments as a % of annual GDP are around 3.5%, the same as in the last year of Major's government.

Fact 8: Basing an economic policy on the predictions of the credit ratings agencies is absurd. As happened in the 1930s, when they failed to foresee the Great Depression, these agencies have behaved pro-cyclically ? encouraging reckless borrowing when the economy seems to be strong and threatening to slash their ratings when a crisis develops.

Fact 9: Despite Osborne's fatuous comparison of Britain's problems with those of Greece, a 2010 IMF study suggested that "the USA and UK could probably increase their debt burden by another 50% of GDP beyond projected 2015 levels without triggering a crisis."

Fact 10: Osborne has ignored a core principle of Keynesian economics - that government spending should be counter-cyclical. In other words, when growth is slow, you increase public spending and when it is strong you reduce government debt by cutting spending. Governments that reduce spending during a recession, or before full economic recovery, invariably make things worse: Economic growth slows, tax revenues fall, and welfare spending increases as unemployment rises.

Can anyone refute this

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newwave · 13/04/2011 22:28

And more

Fact 11: The US, which has made no serious attempts at deficit reduction, has suffered almost the smallest recession of any major economy, whereas Ireland and Greece have suffered the most because of drastic spending cuts.

Fact 12: The worst recessions of the 20th century have been caused by harsh spending cuts. For example, in 1937, FDR's premature attempt to balance the US budget helped to plunge the US economy back into recession and Neville Chamberlain's disastrous deflationary budget of 1932 had a similar effect in Britain.

Fact 13: Even if Osborne's policies are successful in reducing debt, their only effect will be to transfer it from the government's books to private households. Although household debt has drastically increased since Cecil Parkinson's "Big Bang" financial deregulation of the 1980s, and is the highest in Europe, the household debt-to-income ratio fell between 2007 and 2010. But according to the OBR, household debt will rise again (by £245 billion from 2011 to 2015) whilst public debt will fall by only £43 billion ? the former the result of rising unemployment, falling wages, cuts in benefits and inflation and the latter the effect of a slump in demand and falling tax revenues.

Fact 14: Three Nobel prize-winning economists (Stiglitz, Krugman and Pissaredes) condemn Osborne?s austerity measures as seriously misguided, as does Martin Wolf of the Financial Times.

Fact 15: In 2007, Cameron promised to stick to Labour?s spending plans. Then came the financial crisis, the damaging effects of which he chooses to ignore. Not surprising, since before the financial crisis he had criticised Gordon Brown for regulating the banks too tightly.

So Osborne's ?Big Lie? is the product of what Karl Rove called ?creating your own reality?. As the cuts begin to bite, it will be peddled ad infinitum until the Tories have turned their small-state, low-tax dreams into reality and achieved a further transfer of wealth from rich to poor.

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Quattrocento · 13/04/2011 22:30

I don't know where to start with this nonsense. Other than most of those facts are not actually facts.

To be honest, I think that people believe what they want to believe. So if you want to believe that the UK was not in danger of losing its credit rating (it was btw) and that the deficit isn't therefore a problem, you go ahead and believe it.

If you want to believe that the earth is flat, there's a society where all the members think the same way.

newwave · 13/04/2011 22:34

Quattro

await your considered and evidence based rebuttal of these "facts"

As for the flat Earth type delusions I leave those to the Tories and their supporters.

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Chil1234 · 13/04/2011 23:18

So the reason why unemployment has receded slightly together with inflation is....?

newwave · 13/04/2011 23:24

Chil I was waiting for that one :o how about a "bet" now that by year end unemployment has risen by at least half a million.

I expected inflation to drop as we are heading for a new recession and consumer spending is at it's lowest since the last time the Tories were in power but it still is not back to 2% and lets stick to RPI not the CPI fiddle.

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Chil1234 · 13/04/2011 23:28

I'm sure the numbers will go up and down between now and the end of the year so I won't take up the bet if you don't mind. But don't forget.... a lot of us voted for 'small state, low tax'. We're getting the smaller state and will be expecting lower taxes in due course.

newwave · 13/04/2011 23:40

Did you also vote for,

High unemployment
The dismantling/privatisation of the NHS and education
Increased evictions
Increased rough sleeping
Increased child poverty
Reduced benefits for the needy
Wage freezes in the public sector (which with our inflation result in wage reductions)
The betrayal of the Tories promise to "punish" the bankers, Remember "Dave's" promise to limit bonuses in bailed out banks to £2600.

You voted for that by voting filth Tory

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Niceguy2 · 13/04/2011 23:49

Just another long article most of which basically says "Our credit card hasn't been rejected yet and our mates owe more. So good times!"

So we're in debt. That much you don't dispute? Or do you? We have a deficit yes or no?

So can we continue to live in debt? Or at some point do we have to pay off money we borrow? And if/when we do, do you accept that involves spending less than we earn so part of that money is repayment of debt?

Or do you think that we can borrow from Peter to pay Paul....whilst at the same time feeding the poor & needy?

And has any mainstream political party suggested that cuts are completely unnecessary? Yes or no?

Quattrocento · 13/04/2011 23:52

Ok, I cannot be arsed to unpick all of your 15 non-facts. So I am going to concentrate on Non-fact 7. The one where you claim that the UK was not in danger of losing its AAA credit rating

There are three main credit rating agencies - Moodys, Standard and Poors and Fitches. All three of them warned that the UK could lose its AAA credit rating if the deficit wasn't brought under control.

Here is an article from a notorious peddler of right wing filth, The Guardian which warns the same thing

If the UK had lost its AAA credit rating, our interest payments would have risen sharply.

I suggest you abandon this sort of stuff. You clearly do not know a thing about it and it is unfair to try to mislead MNers in this way

FWIW I have never voted Tory and have no Tory agenda. I do however have an agenda against those trying deliberately to mislead MNers. Suspect you are a card carrying member of the deficit party on the recruit

newwave · 13/04/2011 23:54

And has any mainstream political party suggested that cuts are completely unnecessary? Yes or no?.

No, however the speed and depth is in dispute also the targets of the cuts and the split between cuts and tax rises.

Only a fool would bring the economy crashing to a halt during a recession, you get the economy moving and then you cut the deficit and repay debt.

As any fool knows the cuts are based upon ideology not good economics.

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Quattrocento · 14/04/2011 00:01

I'm actually going to report this thread. It's nonsense from start to finish. You do not know what you are talking about. It is disingenuous or deliberate lies.

Please acknowledge that you stated (in non-fact 7) that the UK was not in danger of having its AAA rating removed. Please also acknowledge that the three main credit rating agencies do not share your view.

purits · 14/04/2011 00:02

"Fact 4: In June 2010, the budget deficit was under £155 billion, well below the Treasury's £178 billion estimate made six months earlier."

This just reminds us how bad the Treasury were at forecasting. They got it repeatedly wrong.
I bet Gordy was so pleased when people said "hurrah! We are only £155b in debt" A classic conjurer's misdirection trick.

Scarletbanner · 14/04/2011 00:06

Not sure about all 15 of your facts Newwave but I note no-one has disagreed with your original point. The Tories agreed with Labour's spending plans until 2008 and would certainly not have regulated the banks any more rigorously. So unless anyone can give me evidence of what the Tories would have done differently had they been in power when (and before ) financial calamity happened, I'll agree with Mervyn King: it wasn't Labour's fault.

newwave · 14/04/2011 00:06

Here is an article from a notorious peddler of right wing filth, The Guardian which warns the same thing

Have you read it?, it mentions Osbournes failure to meet growth forecasts which will exacerbate our deficit problem, if growth goes up, no problem because the tax receipts will help us reduce the deficit.

As for the rating agencies their track record is rather suspect, they gave Lehman Brothers an AAA rating a month before it crashed. The threat to downgrade us was I suspect an empty threat and just sabre rattling.

I suggest you abandon this sort of stuff. You clearly do not know a thing about it and it is unfair to try to mislead MNers in this way

Pot kettle black comes to mind.

The Tories are indulging in scaremongering and the recession as an excuse to screw the poor and to enrich even further those already rich.

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Niceguy2 · 14/04/2011 00:08

Usually yes. And had Labour put some pennies away during the boom years, perhaps we wouldn't have had to make so many cuts, so quickly.

But the problem is that we are skint. Utterly. We have one of the highest tax burdens in the EU, becoming more uncompetitive by the day because of all the new laws/regulations.

Our deficit as a percentage of GDP was actually higher than economic powerhouses like Sierra Leone and the rather successful Iceland. Still we're doing better (only slightly) than Afghanistan.

And Ireland have a smaller budget deficit than we do. Pfft, why are they making cuts? Keep borrowing man! They haven't stopped lending yet and the USA are still borrowing trillions. Keep going!!!!! And as for paying back?

Nah. Just default.

newwave · 14/04/2011 00:11

Please acknowledge that you stated (in non-fact 7) that the UK was not in danger of having its AAA rating removed.

Isnt that self evident

Please also acknowledge that the three main credit rating agencies do not share your view.

More to the point I dont share their views and I suspect the agencies agendas.

Now just run along to teacher you pathetic ...................................

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newwave · 14/04/2011 00:14

Usually yes. And had Labour put some pennies away during the boom years, perhaps we wouldn't have had to make so many cuts, so quickly.

The Tories policies will increase debt, less jobs= less taxes. Less jobs=more benefit payments.

We are heading for another recession

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Quattrocento · 14/04/2011 00:16

Would you answer the following questions please?

  1. Are you a member of a political party? If so which?
  1. What are your qualifications in economics?
  1. Why do you think you are better placed to assess the credit rating of the UK than the three major credit rating agencies
  1. Why have you come on this site to talk utter shite?
newwave · 14/04/2011 00:17

Quatt, are you the Mary Whitehouse of MN.

Myself I trust others to come to their own conclusions without thought police like you to do it for them.

Ok everybody Quatt knows whats best for you as you are to thick to make up your own minds ffs

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Quattrocento · 14/04/2011 00:18

I'm no Mary Whitehouse. But I do like facts to be facts - evidence based assertions and all that.

No answer to any of my questions? No surprises there. Does Ed know you're doing this? I suspect he'd be embarrassed.

newwave · 14/04/2011 00:22

1 No but I have in the past been a member of the SDP and LD

2 I studied economics at college many many years ago but I will admit it was part of a larger course and at a very basic level

3 They have their own agendas as do the world bank and the IMF and no a I am not a conspiracy theorist. That and the agencies hardly have a record for accuracy.

4 I thought i was copy you, you pompous ............

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Quattrocento · 14/04/2011 00:26

Oh, so you have no qualifications, no experience, but you believe that the major credit-rating agencies and the IMF are all in cahoots when they say that the UK needs to reduce its deficit.

I simply don't believe that you are not a member of the Labour Party - the non-facts are too skewed for anything else to be true

Right, so as a self-confessed loon, will you now abandon this discourse?

newwave · 14/04/2011 00:34

Right, so as a self-confessed loon, will you now abandon this discourse?

Absolutely not, I (unlike you it appears) will trust others to draw their own conclusions, unlike you I am not a member of the thought police.

I will however reiterate that I am not nor ever have been a member of the Labour Party nor any other Socialist party and only the SDP/LD parties. If that does not suffice to convince you then that is your problem not mine.

Tell me are you a relation of Senator McCarthy

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Quattrocento · 14/04/2011 00:38

I'm going to unpick non-fact 5 now that my blood's up

Just to remind you all what non-fact 5 is all about

"The budget deficit is no more ?structural? than an overdraft in your bank account when you spend more than you earn."

This is nonsense. We all know what living on an overdraft means. It means you have no money and you are living on your overdraft. This is what a structural deficit is. This is how we have been living.

"There is either a real deficit or not, and if there is, then it is due to either excessive spending or an inadequate tax take. Since it can easily be demonstrated that the problem is not the former, then it must be the latter"

Hang on a chuffing minute. Who said it wasn't the former? Oh, you! That's right. The reason multinational corporations have been emigrating in droves is clearly because they are not paying enough tax in the UK and they want to pay more in Luxemburg or Switzerland or Ireland? Oh no, sorry they are emigrating in droves because our corporate tax rate is uncompetitively high, actually. And our personal tax rate is one of the highest in the world. So, erm, perhaps it is a question of too much spending after all.

newwave · 14/04/2011 00:39

BTW

And this is in no way back tracking as I agree with almost all of it, the article was a C&P and I did ask if anyone could refute this which I note no one has so far.

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