Is there such a thing as "severe poverty" in the UK?

[Niceguy2]

I'm being serious. I'm not talking about poor. Obviously there are plenty of people who either are poor or think they are. But I mean severe poverty.

I just read the Save the Children child poverty report which claims that 1.6million children live in severe poverty. And they define "severe poverty" as a family of 1 child who has an income of less than £7000 (or 2 kids with income < £12k).

But a quick tot up of benefits tells me that a family with 1 child would get the following each year:

Income Support £3412
Tax Credits £2850
Child Benefit £1055
Total 7317

And that's before you take into account housing benefit, council tax, free school dinners etc etc. So to me, no UK family should fall into that definition.

Then the report goes on to say they say someone is living in poverty if basic necessities are not met such as not "having enough shoes", not being able to pay for "home contents insurance" or children missing out on "having friends round" or "school trips".

When I hear "poverty" I think of children living in the streets with no food, not being unable to go on a school trip!

So given all that, is there such a thing as severe poverty in the UK? Or is it as I suspect that some families just can't manage their money?

I'm not trying to argue that £7k is a lot of money. I'm just saying that if that's the definition and the state gives you more, then surely there isn't such a thing?

yes, it was rather unfortunate. it belonged to an ex-minister, and future president too - we had paid the rent in advance, as is common practice, and didn't see a penny of it back.

was a lovely old place too. and then we came back form the shops one day, and part of the ceiling had collapsed. got the builders in, to find out the bit that had collapsed was full of asbestos (although not entirely surprising...)

so we moved.

and lost a lot os stuff due to asbestos dust...

took us 6 months of negotiating to move in, and then we lived there 6 weeks, and moved out in 6 days

ah, who says being an expat is boring

I am repeating again what I have done further down. You cannot look at poverty from a "financial " only perspective. Poverty is about much nmore than this which is why it cannot be compared to poverty in the Third World. We have food and generally we have housing, we also have free healthcare and education. In those terms we shpould be doing well in the UK and yet wide disparities in life chances and length exist - why is that?

Look as a health visitor I go into lots of communities and homes. Let me tell you about one home I went into over the pasy few years (details of family withheld). The one bedroom flat had married parents, one working and child/children.
The mold I saw in that flat was the worst I had ever seen anywhere. I actually went home and got my camera to photograph it so that the pictures could go into health records. The family had absolutely NO choice but to remain there, they couldn't afford a mortgage, they couldn't afford tp privately rent and the council had nothing to move them into.
For the first time ever I made a formal complaint to the council about the state of a property - I sent photos, I sent research evidence showing the impact of damp housing on childrens health, I pointed out that they were setting the child/children up for a lifetime of respiratory illnesses and that in my opinion the property was currently unfit for habitation.

The council's response - complaint not upheld because "it's the first time this has come to our attention". This was despite the repeated calls the Mum had made to them over the previous months.

So yes - they had shelter, adequate food, clothing etc, the parents did not smoke or drink and yet despite that they were living in dreadful conditions which they were powerless to change. From a purely financial point of view y0ou could say they did not have enough money to change their circumstances for the better despite the effect it was having on the health of all of them.

So again - please don't tell me poverty does not exist because I simply won't believe you.

I believe there is poverty among those who work. I don't believe the same level exists amongst those who don't.
Genuinely, I think if you work hard and look after your own, the Govt washes it's hands of you but if you are dependent on the state, it looks after you.
Shameful and pretty obscene, actually.

Okay - perhaps I am naive then but with the whole benefits packages HOW are some people living in such dire straits?

I think both Jogon and SAF are wrong there actually.

It is very easy to be worse off working than not working, 2 1/2yrs ago I would have been £400 a month worse off working than not working (official calculation by the DWP). On "paper" I will be £100 a week better off if I start working 20hrs a week. The reality is that it doesn't take into account the cost of school meals, travel to and from work and the 20% of childcare that I would have to find, prescriptions etc.

And being on benefits doesn't mean that everything is covered, you may only find a property to rent that accepts LHA (HB) that is more than the LHA rate - you have to top that amount up from your other benefits. God help you if you had a job and repayments of any description that you could manage while working - it's highly unlikely you'll be able to manage to keep those repayments up on benefits, the debt mounts.........and well you knw the rest.

You can be in poverty even if you are keeping your head above water (or just treading it) in financial terms as well. Because poverty isn't just about a lack of money

Okay. Still genuine question so please advise.
I know off at least two single mother son full benefits who live in very nice private rentals. they both smoke, go out , have new clothes, X boxes etc and I phones.
I am NOT being facetious, honestly, I am genuinely curious as to how some can live like this but others can't.
Is it because the Govt is especially generous to single mothers?

And being on benefits doesn't mean that everything is covered, you may only find a property to rent that accepts LHA (HB) that is more than the LHA rate - you have to top that amount up from your other benefits

Yup I needed a bungalow as ds is disabled and yes I am on benfits after my xhubby walked out as could not cope.

Council had nothing So i had to go private rented .Had to find moeny up front and i pay £200 a month on top of my rent .Its not big house or even that dear compared to some places here .But i struggled to find somewhere that i could afford and will take Hb .And now i been informed that I shall be losing another £120 a month from the Hb as they now take into account only teh bottom 30% when working out Hb. Hmm great but that may be based on a town house with 2 flights of stairs .

Ds 1 at collage no free dinners or bus fair luckily he gets Ema which just covers his bus fairs.
Ds2 should get free school dinners but due to dietry problems he cant have ( has crohns so cant have gluten,dairy or soya )and have you seen the price of special foods !!
Dd ditto should be free dinners but due to severe nut allergy cant

ds3 yup he gets free dinners

I am fortunate that I learnt how to budget and we can mange but its a juggling act and would not take much to push someone into debt .I watch oil prices I ahve oil heating and have to be very carefull with it

Jogan

i may be wrong but prehaps they have extra money coming in or buy cheap food or scrimp elsewhere catalogues , doorstep loans .large amount of debts on credit cards .And how many parents do you know sp or otherwise on benefits that dont ahve all the above

See above im a Sp and yes we do ok but i make cuts where people dont see .Though new clothes for me well meh

ok there are 2 possiilities. (well 3 actually)

1. The most likely - they're living on a time bomb (also known as credit -and usually expensive credit too (example - I have both a capital one card, and a Very account, which I use sparingly, keeping within my budget - however, I've only had them 2 years, and since then they have between them given me.............£6000 of credit !!! I don't work. The interest rates are 40%+. Now - I've got a decent edcuatin behind me, knw how to budget, and use them (mostly Very) wisely, The temptation to spend it all is still there, and I should imagine for many the temptation to make sure that they and their children "fit in" is too much.

Reconditioned Iphones are avaiable on all tarriffs on O2, for free btw. And - here's a thought - maybe they got some of that stuff before they became single? Or they were gifts?

I smoke btw - roll-ups,

1. They were lucky, like me, and left their relationships with the fathers with little debt, and perhaps the father actually pays maintanence (mine doesn't), and they can budget well. Perhaps they've saved up, it's amazing if you're really really strict with yourself (ok and yes go without stuff yourself ) how much you nca save over a period of time. Mind. exH picked up an Xbox for DS2 for his birthday last year for £80 - looks brand new but wasn't.

1. They're claiming fraudulently/working cash in hand.

"I am fortunate that I learnt how to budget and we can mange but its a juggling act and would not take much to push someone into debt "

oh very very true - I am a master at "spending next months CTC before it's in my account without going into debt" I'm also fortunate that playing the organ at church means I have an extra £80 a month to spend (you are allowed to earn up to £20 before they start reducing your IS). I actually get £120 for playing - but my IS is reduced by £40 . (if that makes sense?). It's amazing what you can do with that extra £80 a month!

Jogon

Im taking my kids on what to outsiders seems a very expensive trip ( of to Florida with my two youngest next September) and i am expecting some judgey pant comments about life on benefits and single parents .

But what they wont know and I won1t tell them becuase it is none of their business .Is that we are flying with one of the make a wish charitys as dd has life limting illness ( which is not obvious ) and ds3 is disabled which is obvious but becuase he is not at school with dd most dont know

.But to outsiders hey I am a scrounger living the highlife

oh fabulous goingroundthebend - enjoy!!

Thank you we will. They don`t know though as thought having to wait with them are we going yet in my ears would drive me mad

But its more showing that things are not what they always seem .Eg my car outside is brand new and big one .But its motoablity and we lose that from the Dla .But theres no big signs saying that .So by all accounts i look loaded and peopel must think I am swinging benefits

oh yes definiteily agree there.

Nothing like as exciting but we are off to Spring Harvest (at Butlins) first week of the Easter Holidays - that's courtesy of my organ pay, paid it off in bits last year.

And then end of April off to see the Moscow State Circus with the DS's - ringside seats , courtesy of my social fund loan finally having been paid off and 2 months break from the water bill

This is why SAF, I think that finance/budgetting lessons should be compulsory in school. Not all parents know how to do it, so can't teach their children, and it makes life on a low income/benefits much much easier if you have those skills. Of course you still have the worries about if you get a really big, or unexpected expense, but it's easier to deal with.

Learning how to manage money, and to make plans, and knowing the best places to source credit if you really do have to take the route could help so much for many. I think often by the time people do (if they do at all!) seek help for financial concerns the damage has already been done.

true - but it would be a start, and budgetting skills don't appear to be simple for many. Certainly our local sure start centre offers a course for people wanting helping with it - and it's very popular, sadly these people have already got themselves into a mess before they learn the skills, so they have to not only learn how to budget, but also how t get out of debt

I know what you mean, thing its the simple (to me now) things of "bills come in, do you pay it straight away or wait closer until the day it's due".

Many people would pay it when it came in without thinking.........however you may have more bills due to come in which will be due sooner, and money coming in after those subsequent bills have been paid, but before the first bill is due.

Or with debt I know to pay the highest interest rate things off first, but for many they think "pay the biggest one off first" - but the biggest one they may be paying no interest at all. So end up being in debt longer than they have to be.

I've found it much harder to budget on benefits than when I was working, the 2 and 4 weekly payments for most things don't tally up with monthly payments most places require. A lot of people I know on benefits don't actually know how much money they have coming in for each month - as they do their calculations based on a 4 week month. So they think £50 for shopping a week, £200 a month............except it's not, if you stick to £50 a week = 4 weeks in a month then you run out of money for shopping as you've only budgetted £200. (iykwim?)