"No limits to private patients" in NHS hospitals?

[WilfShelf]

Fuck me. What's to stop them just booting out NHS patients? Can someone explain why this won't be a complete decimation of the NHS?

LFN Why haven't other countries copied the NHS? Because it's expensive and they'd have to raise taxes to pay for it, probably. Such a magnificent service doen't come cheaply. We are extremely fortunate to have had sixty-five years of it.

The NHS is definitely being dismantled. The government wants rid because it doesn't want to pay for it, and it doesn't want to be blamed when things go wrong.

You might believe in universal healthcare provision, LFN, but the government clearly doesn't. Nor in free education.

On the contrary. The Gove reforms will help neuter (and hopefully destroy) the teacher unions who destroy opportunity for our children. Free schools and academies can fire bad teachers regardless of seniority, and give good ones bonuses and promotions regardless of seniority.

Teaching will become more meritocratic, and will attract better calibre graduates. The bad and mediocre teachers will lose out, and that is extremely good news.

However, you shouldn't be surprised that the unions are squealing. Their era of thuggishly enforced mediocrity is coming to an end.

Whilst the NHS changes are effectively irreversible - the NHS as we know it will be a distant memory after the coalition reforms - I am extremely concerned about the schools.

If Labour ever came back to power, they could very easily, in a fit of centralist, authoritarian anti-aspiration pique, force the academies and free schools back into the hands of the incompetent, union stronghold local authorities.

It is extremely bad form for one Government to irreversibly bind its successors. However, seeing as Gordon Brown did it with his terrible 50 year PFI contracts where it costs £1000 to change a light bulb, and his moronic aircraft carrier contracts where it costs more to cancel the contract than to build the ship - why shouldn't the coalition enter into similar 50 year agreements with the Free Schools? It would
stop Labour from re-destroying our education system for three generations.

Joke, yes?

'Fraid it's just beginning.

Anyway, this is about the NHS.

No - certainly not a joke.

The education reforms are one of the few things which keep me loyal to the Tories. Otherwise Cameron's constant sell-out to the EU would have had me defecting to UKIP a long time ago.

Actually, hardly any patients will notice any change in the NHS - which is one reason why the NHS privatisation won't be a big deal, outside UNISON circles.

If you really want a political joke, though, I suggest Alan Johnson.

Failing that, how about Ken Clarke's hair? :)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348307/Ken-Clarkes-got-X-Factor-Jedward-style-quiff-Cabinet-meeting.html

Actually, the NHS privatisation could have a big political impact - but onyl if some loudmouth like Lord Young or Howard Flight calls it "privatisation".

The British public don't want to hear "privatisation" but that is grounded in the irrational fear that their universal provision free at the point of delivery is threatened.

As long as there is a universal service, I don't think the average user particularly cares who is providing it.

The universal provision and nationalised nature is one of the key strengths of the NHS LFN.

Our health system costs half the american (private) system, per person, and is better. This is made possible because it is universal, so we save a lot of money on wasteful and useless administration.

Also, 'competition' = waste. There is very little waste accross our NHS.

Competition doesn't = waste. Do you think Tescos and Sainsburys are wasteful? What about Next, and Gap?

On the contrary, competition makes them increasingly efficient, so they can sell at either lower prices (= more customers) or higher margins (= more shareholder value).

And if you don't think the NHS is wasteful - then just wow.

Thats very short sighted of you LFN. Think of the local high streets that went to waste because of competition from out of town supermarkets. Once supermarkets have drowned the competition, they are free to raise their prices as high as they like - we are now seeing many instances where remaining local shop prices are lower than those of supermarkets. Furthermore, availability is compromised because people who have to rely on local services - pensioners, disabled, those who dont drive - end up with a reduced and insufficient service.

As for 'shareholder value', with the current system WE are the shareholders. Any profits or increases in efficience can be put straight back into the system to pay for eg new drugs, more staff, updated facilities etc.

When shareholders are anonymous foreign and faceless, those profits will just evaporate out of the system and out of the country, never to be seen again, except in a small tory party donation perhaps.

Examples of closed markets: Soviet Russia.

Examples of open markets: the West after the Thatcher/Reagan reforms.

Where were things better? Where were services run more efficiently?

I find your comments very chilling Long finger nails.

As for 'shareholder value', with the current system WE are the shareholders. Any profits or increases in efficience can be put straight back into the system to pay for eg new drugs, more staff, updated facilities etc.
When shareholders are anonymous foreign and faceless, those profits will just evaporate out of the system and out of the country, never to be seen again, except in a small tory party donation perhaps.

Very very well put. LFN wont agree though, she puts private profit before patients needs, typical Thatcherite. Better people die as long as divedends are maintained,

% of government revenue spent on health

Australia 17.7%
Canada 16.7%
France 14.2%
Germany 17.6%
Japan 16.8%
Norway 17.9%
Sweden 13.6%
UK 15.8%
USA 18.5%

Healthcare costs are % of GDP

Australia 8.7%
Canada 10.1%
France 11.0%
Germany 10.4%
Japan 8.1%
Norway 9.0%
Sweden 9.2%
UK 8.4%
USA 16.0%

Just to clarify the myth that we spend the most on our health service in the Western countries. We don't. (Commonwealth Fund, 2007)

Should be Healthcare costs as % of GDP

Agree with LadyBlaBlah - our health system is cheap in terms of %GDP.

It's urgent now - there is a second reading of the health bill on Monday, so we need to let Coalition MPs know asap that we don't want them to approve this bill.

If enough people write to their MP, they will take notice. Write to them, especially if they have a small majority - they must be worried about their seats, and they don't need to go along with this if they don't want to. Letters can go c/o The House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

There are editable letters here and you can email your MP here

And another thing. It's not true what Lansley and Cameron are saying, that GPs want to do it. They are being forced to do it.

My MP is Lansley. Have written but suspect it's a futile waste of 5 minutes. Still, feel better for it :)

In the New Statesman David Owen is appealing to Liberal Democrat MPs to stop the health bill

He says that the government mustn't be allowed to bring in an external market in healthcare - the NHS needs to focus on care not competition. How right he is. The government keeps saying that patients don't mind who is providing services as long as they don't have to pay - but we do care. We know the definition of a "health need" will start to change, in the same way that apparently the government no longer cares how long we will have to wait for treatment.

This is about whether we are losing something fundamental to the NHS that we can never get back - that care is what matters, not profit margins.

Waiting times are already rising.