Want your children to be able to go to uni?

[GreatAuntLoretta]

I am really feeling the urge to join the NUS protest against tuition fees on Thursday 9th December. Although my children are both under five, I am really really upset and annoyed to think that if they want to go to university in the future we will be very unlikely to be able to afford to send them. Who knows what the fees will be by then?! Also when my children are a little older I would really like to have the opportunity to retrain and do a degree. That would be completely off the cards. (angry)

Is anyone else with young children thinking of attending? It would be good to stick together with some other parents. A large group of parents will probably be a lot safer than a random woman with a buggy and a toddler in a mass crowd.

Who is with me?

Is there already a family protest group out there?

I tell you who annoys me, and that's Malcolm Grant, Provost of UCL. Sat in many meetings in the past keeping quiet about how pro-fees he is, but when asked outright in a senior level meeting at Cambridge in 2002/3, admitted he had benefited handsomely from a free selective education himself. Watch him get his peerage on the back end of all this money grubbing. He currently earns £376,190 by the way (gets free central London accommodation, too).

If I had had to pay my own way, I would have done law, not education. And my colleagues well know it. I still haven't ruled this out.

Free houses are not available for all who want them, so most people have to take out a mortgage, which is amuch bigger outlay than a university education. So people think carefully before taking on the mortgate debt, and decide on balanace it if is worth it (and the interest). Why should people not be prepared to do the same calucuation regarding a university degree - a much smaller debt.

BoffinMum - what do you make of the NUS graduate tax proposal? Do you think the LibDems should be supporting this, instead?

granted - no major political party is proposing funding student tuition by raising income tax? Don't you wonder why?

Yawn, now we are comparing an education to buying a house, what next buying a car?

I will try to attend as by the time I send my children it will be £60.000 for the two of them. I don't think we will be able to afford that.
I will not be taking my children as I feel it may be too dangerous and there is always the prospect of violence breaking out.
Hope to see other mums there.

mrsguy - and if they decide they don't want to incurr a mortgage they rent instead - ie there is an alternative.

a better comparison would be to say that if people want hospital treatment they should take out a loan to cover the cost of it. Or that if they don't have a job they don't get financial help, they have to have a loan and pay it back when they do find a job.

if there was an alternative way of getting a degree (in the way there is for education at a lower level - ie private or gov provided) then the tuition fees might be acceptable

Graduate tax:

(a) because it affects all graduates equally - those with rich parents can't buy them out of it, (but they may choose to help them in other ways, which you would still find objectionable)
(b) because it means those who can afford to pay most pay most, (so how are you going to ascertain how much 'x' degree is worth in tax as opposed to 'y' degree, or are all degrees and institutions equal? Will you pay more for a First than a pass?)
(c) beause thereare no upfront costs to put people off, (just unending higher rates of tax, which is equally off putting, and the question will be raised that those of us who went through in the 80s/90s or earlier should also pay more in tax as we benefitted too?)
(d) because it means those who are going into low-earning but socially vital careers like teaching are not put off, (see above)and
(e) because there is no fixed amount of 'debt' that graduates face, which I think is the real problem with the currently proposed system; instead graduates will just face a slightly higher rate of tax. (No fixed amount of 'debt', just an open ended commitment to paying HMG whatever they like for as long as they like, at whatever rate band they like via your tax code, which you are powerless to prevent unless you give up work. They could decide to tax grads at 60%; they could decide to lower the point at which you start repaying if it wasn't coming in fast enough. A 'slightly higher rate of tax' could be as much as 20% if the coffers were low. How will HMG track the grads anyway? Will unis be able to have their NINOs for instance to hand over to HMRC so they can instruct the employer on the PAYE code om employment after graduation? Will the grad be honest and say I need to pay more tax, I have a degree?)

scary - under a graduate tax i would pay a higher tax rate than my husband who earns loads more than me but got his degree in Wales; and more tax than some of my work colleagues who do similar jobs but don't all have degrees. I don't think this is fair and would put me off studying for a degree. not that i agree with a loan for 30k either.

I would much rather know what it is we have to pay than have an open ended commitment to HMRC. I don't like the fact that the fees have risen, but it was inevitable once their introduction was generally accepted. It was always after that point a question of when, not if, and how much they would rise by.

I would rather they had staggered the rise, so those going in 2012 had more time to plan. I think we will see more people living at home and studying, which may not be a good thing, but if it is the degree that is important, rather than the uni experience, then perhaps more will be willing to do that.

i too would have preferred it to be more staggered. my oldest is planning to start in sept and whilst he escapes the fee increase he's competing with all those students trying to get in before the fees rise and all those who didn't manage to get in last year.

you sound as if you only have 1 child to put through uni. we have 3 and that is way beyond our means

i could stomach all this if the fees were increasing to say 4k

Yes, I only have one, I couldn't have more.

Did the Browne review not find that a graduate tax would not start bringing in enough revenue to fund universities until the 2041. How would we fund universitys in the meantime?

huddspur, out of general tax as it was for "Dave" Gideon and the liar Clegg and a large number of the Tory MP scum.

hi, I`m so glad that i found this topic, been steaming angry over the tuition fees since nick clegg (grrrrr) did his famous turn around.

What gets me is that when we were young we had grants to see us through uni, and most of us had to work to supplement this, then they bought in the loans and many of my younger colleagues took years to pay off their loans, making it difficult to get a mortgage until it was paid. Now my daughter is 16 and although she wants desperately to go to uni, she is absolutely terrified of the debt facing her, weve told her unfortunately its going to become the norm for her and her peers and they will be all in the same boat (feel that is totally lousy advice but....). My DH is a senior lectturer and his uni are already looking at job losses as they are going to lose government funding as the new fees are going to replace that, except the figures do not add up at all and the long and short is less money for unis which is going to result in less courses being offered.

However, what makes me furious is, 1: the government now asking youngsters and their families to pay an incrediable amount for their education when them themselves had it for free!!!! and 2: the media making out that students are lazy, aggressive and losing public sympathy with their protests, when all these media people again had their free education!!!! (oh so sure they are all different when they were young) Yes the media has focused on a few students geting out of hand, but we, as intelligent adults, know that that is a very small minority!!!

Yes definately want a peaceful family march as I have three children to get through uni (if thats what they choose - however, the alternative is.......what for gods sake!!!)

Rant over, for now!

I can not believe this:
news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Tuition-Fees-Liberal-Democrats-Will-Vote-Yes-On-Higher-University-Fees-Nick-Clegg-Says/Article/201012115848940?f=rss

I am so sick of all these broken promises ! As I said in the beginning of this thread ds will learn German and French and study in Europe for free if he wants to. END OF.

But before that I'll be outside my MPs office dressed as a suffragette tomorrow and tell what I think of ladies who are for turning !
www.coalitionofresistance.org.uk/2010/12/nus-women-call-to-protest-outside-lynne-featherstones-office-8-december/

We wouldn't have this problem if Labour hadn't got the economy in such a mess that we can afford very little and if they hadn't allowed so many people into university who shouldnt be there. Plenty of the examples above like nursing don't need a degree anyway so presumably market forces will ensure when there are few applying that those careers go back to being non graduate ones and firms will stop wanting a graduate to be a typist when she could as easily have done 2 years typing and shorthand at 14 and got a job at 16. We could find it works out being a better thing for everyone over time.

xenia - except there will still be lots of people going to uni in wales and scotland as they aren't affected. so presumably if people can't source english graduates they will just recruit scottish or welsh ones instead.

agree with what you say about labour.

amicissima - you don't want to do that.

Think Buckingham is a bit pants, isn't it?

Thanks for link, whittingtonmum - that looks like tremendous fun!

Am in half a mind to go to that. Not the easiest fancy dress, though. Not as though most of us happen to have the odd suffragette outfit/bonnet/corset/whatever lying around, is it?

What do you think is a a cheap costume?

I think the idea of a graduate tax is wrong as well.

As a result of the 1944 Education Act, secondary education became free for the first time, as did university education. This meant different social groups were able to go to university for the first time, and also very many more women than previously.

We seem to have regressed and got ourselves into a situation whereby the social pool of graduates will narrow once again, and the gender gap between the educated and non-educated will widen. It is no good waffling on about how nobody pays anything up front, because people aren't stupid and they know full well it is in effect another mortgage with little prospect of a really good return on their investment if they are anything other than middle class white males (did you know the vast majority of black male graduates in this country went to London Met, for example? No dreaming spires for them).

The danger with this is that it weakens the country economically and runs the risk of increasing social unrest. The reasons for this are complex but suffice it to say these are exactly the reasons that countries like France and Germany have decided against adopting similar policies.

Agree, BoffinMum.

jackstarlightstarbright - not sure why you askedfor my opinion above on govts raising income tax to pay for unis - I never suggested that would be a good idea.

I mentioned agraduate tax, which I think is preferable to the system of 9K per annum fees + loans being suggested.

But have repeatedly made it clear that I think no fees for anyone is my preferred solution - or if fees have to be chargedfor some, for the some to be determined on merit ie academic ability, not wealth.

'As I said in the beginning of this thread ds will learn German and French and study in Europe for free if he wants to. END OF.' He doesn't have to learn another language, although it is useful. Maastricht and others in the Netherlands teach in English for their BAs, and I think they do at the Sorbonne as well for some courses.

It's not free over here, but 1850 euros per year looks more attractive.

Granted - only some will charge £9k, most will charge £6k I think as they will work out that they won't get the uptake on courses otherwise.

I think we all know how much the likes of Oxford and Cambridge will charge.