Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Want your children to be able to go to uni?

389 replies

GreatAuntLoretta · 03/12/2010 17:12

I am really feeling the urge to join the NUS protest against tuition fees on Thursday 9th December. Although my children are both under five, I am really really upset and annoyed to think that if they want to go to university in the future we will be very unlikely to be able to afford to send them. Who knows what the fees will be by then?! Also when my children are a little older I would really like to have the opportunity to retrain and do a degree. That would be completely off the cards. (angry)

Is anyone else with young children thinking of attending? It would be good to stick together with some other parents. A large group of parents will probably be a lot safer than a random woman with a buggy and a toddler in a mass crowd.

Who is with me?

Is there already a family protest group out there?

OP posts:
RRocks · 09/12/2010 11:32

We know that social mobility declined under Labour, despite all their protestations of how much they are in favour of it. Diane Abbott and others sent their children private and didn't have them experience ths same system as the rest of us.

That doesn't mean they intended it; their policies failed to achieve what they wanted. And the fact that a socialist sends their child to a private school doesn't mean that they are not in favour of social mobility - they clearly are for their own child. It means that whilst they favour a socialist sytem, which should enable working class people the same opportunities as others, they are not going to let their socialist priciples get in the way of doing the best for their own children. Call it hypocritcal if you like, but it does not mean that they don't want opportunities for all to be socially mobile. In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.

RRocks

camaleon · 09/12/2010 11:48

'In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.'

Welll... unless you understand that the only way to make 'X' work is to stop making the best of Y

claig · 09/12/2010 12:13

Most of us are against these student fees, because we realise that it will stop people going to university due to having to take on large debt. We understand that it will harm social mobility and hinder a meritocratic society, whilst allowing the rich to have an easier ride since they can afford it.

I am a Tory and I am against it, just like many middle class Daily Mail readers. We know it will harm social mobility. So why did Labour start the whole process, if they really care about social mobility?

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 12:24

NC is now describing oponents as 'dreamers' 'because that is the way the world is' Vince Cable has mentioned 'Father Christmas' talk about sinking to new levels.

I keep quipping in, in the middle of your heavy political debates. Xmas Grin

I agree with RRocks btw.

bacon · 09/12/2010 12:27

What is the Point of a degree for many????

Far too many averagely educated students are going to uni. Attending courses that meet no real world needs, pointless degrees leading to admin jobs and unemployment. And that is so true of many of my friends - only one has a proper degree the rest in jobs that any good A level they could of got in. This attitude that the world is their oyster if they get this wonderful thing.

I have absolutely no care in the world whether my children get a degree I want them to get a SKILL, start from the bottom and build themselves up. If they are gifted then they'll get there degree or not.

Degrees should go back to old fashioned ways - teaching, law, science & engineering etc.

Why should hardworking tax payers pay for half cooked degrees I'd rather see the money ploughed into schools, Starting with the basics!

Degrees should be subsidised into our ecomony needs ie Doctors/surgeons high level - down to admin low level. Why should a student think that a degree that has no worth while job prospects expect it to be funded? Funded and then funded to be on the dole!

No, we should not fund everyone no matter what background they come from. Students have to accept that cuts have to be made, far too much money has been thrown around in the past, the pot is not big enough!

RRocks · 09/12/2010 12:40

Hi Cameleon,

^'In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.'

Welll... unless you understand that the only way to make 'X' work is to stop making the best of Y^

The only way to make X work is for everyone to be compelled to stop making the best of Y by taking Y away. One or more individuals stopping making the best of Y does not make X work, just as individual charity helps individual cases but doesn't eradicate poverty.

Hi Claig,

So why did Labour start the whole process, if they really care about social mobility?

I'm certainly no expert on Labour policy, and probably didn't pay much attention to what they were planning for England at that time to be honest, but I think the issue was that university standards were said to be falling due to underfunding (ie due to much increased number of students attending universities and therefore hugely increased funding requirements). Weren't top up fees supposed to cover that gap. I agree that it's hardly traditional Labour policy, but then this was New Labour and they took on a lot of Tory ideaology. I suppose New Labour sacrificed their principles on equality of opportunity to some degree in order to stop a slide in standards in universities, which arguably resulted from their own 50% policy, which was all about extending opportunity and social mobility. I guess unforseen consequences, came into play and they had to deal with that one way or another. Personally, I would have cut the 50% target and kept the unis free. There is an issue, as someone pointed out yesterday, that some of us more middle class people would be content to keep uni free by reducing the percentage of children going to university partly because we believe that our own children will still have a good chance of going. People who regard their own children as likely to be in the extra percentage encouraged to go to uni by the Labour policy might not take the same view, although they tend to still want the education to be free. I think Labour was faced with a choice between cutting back on their 50% target, which was never achieved anyway, and expecting students to take loans, and they presumably chose to retain the extra places at unis and make students take what they regarded as reasonably small loans to cover some of the additional funding required.

Sorry, that's a bit rambling, and I'm only surmising.

RRocks

claig · 09/12/2010 12:43

They made polytechnics into universities and allowed the proliferation of degrees in all sorts of subjects such as football studies and gambling studies etc. Why did they do this? Why didn't regulators ensure that degress could only be awarded in subjects that had more academic value? I agree that the degrees on offer need to be looked at, and some pruning should be done. Then students would choose from the high quality degrees on offer and would not be able to do a degree in football studies. Degrees should be rigorous and in academic subjects. Then the 37% who do degrees would be studying worthwhile subjects.

GabbyLoggon · 09/12/2010 12:51

I never got to uni....but think 9 grand woulddeter some from trying

claig · 09/12/2010 12:53

RRocks, Labour say they needed the money to improve standards in education, but they allowed the proliferation of football studies degrees and "mickey mouse" degrees, which are now being used as a stick to beat all students with to justify that students should pay higher for all degrees, just because some are studying "mickey mouse" ones.

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 13:13

Bacon, I agree but if you think a victory today will stop that then you are wrong. These students will still go and do these so call useless degree knowing that they will never repay the loans so it's these are the ones that will still be fully funded, for your taxes.

The ones who will have to pay it back will be our future teachers, health care workers, managers and many more key workers saddled with a higher tax rate than others.

siasl · 09/12/2010 13:24

I find it hard not to have mixed feelings about tuition fees.

The UK clearly needs to cut expenditure in a big way. The country is living way outside its means. Increased tuition fees help that even only in a very small way.

However, on my list of priorities for cuts I can see much much bigger demons to slay (size of public sector and public sector final salary pensions) and I don't like the trend for making the young pay for the baby boomer's debt creation.

I'm not sure higher tuition fees will damage social mobility as much as people think. I paid for my 5 year degree in law in Australia and social mobility is better there than here. When I moved to the UK in '98 the UK was a great place to be; now it seems to be a right mess. Social mobility seems to have dropped even with almost "free" degrees, so I think you need to looks for the underlying reasons.

BoffinMum · 09/12/2010 13:39

As far as I udnerstand it, increased uptake of university places has mainly been in the post-92 sector, where working class kids tend to be congregated. This is the sector that will effectively be closed down from this point onwards.

There hasn't been a particularly impressive increase in students' social mobility in pre-92 universities.

We have a two tier system at present that will rapidly revert to a one-tier system again, freezing out many social groups.

RRocks · 09/12/2010 13:55

Clearly universities needed a lot more money to pay for more staff and more facilities for the huge number of additional students. Presumably the government funded this up to a point but not sufficiently according to the universities, so the top ups covered the gap. Without that money, standards would fall, irrespective of which courses the unis were offering. I think the issue of which courses should be offered at uni is different from how they should be funded, although the two, and others, are related.

Sorry, I don't know anything about degrees in football studies, who allowed them to start up or why. The 'mickey mouse' epithet isn't useful as it only expresses your disdain rather than saying anything about the course. Some people, it seems, would count them as worthwhile if they were useful for getting a job (or perhaps setting up as an agent - could be very lucrative, then they would pay lots of tax and be a major contributor to society, in that view). I don't know whether they are/were useful to people who intended to work in football. If the government thinks that too many people are doing degrees that are not worthwhile, then they should stop funding those courses. That should be fairly simple and it really has nothing to do with funding for universities in general. Maybe people who use that particular stick are doing it because it suits them? Of course, some governments have an idealogical predisposition to allowing organisations to offer whatever they want, allowing the consumer to choose, and making the funding follow the consumer, all regardless of whether any of it is useful to anyone or beneficial to the common good.

Personally, I agree that university degrees should be academic not particularly vocational - law, medicine, dentistry and vet medicine being the exceptions that spring to mind, although these courses involve a lot of practical training too.

Football Studies, How to Become a Millionaire in the Music Business or whatever, might be suitable for other FE institutions but they are fundamentally not academic and not core to what universities do. I tend to agree about turning polytechnics into universities to a large extent, but don't think it was Labour that started that, although I seem to remember there were two distinct stages so maybe Labour did the second one?

Hi Bacon,

Degrees should go back to old fashioned ways - teaching, law, science & engineering etc.

What is traditional or old-fashioned depends on where you draw the line and start your tradition. The Humanities (now called Arts) are some of the oldest courses in our universities. I agree with you as long as you include them - the main ones anyway.

If you regard a degree as valuable only to the extent that it gets you a job you might regard philosophy or history as a useless degree as it doesn't lead to any jobs. (Some would say teacher, but what's the point of teaching history at school if its a useless subject anyway?) Then you might as well do away with all Arts Faculty subjects. My boss, for example, regards Philosphy and Politics as 'Mickey Mouse subjects'. (His main interest is in making money and the main skills required in his business are a dedication to making money and numeracy.) I wonder whether David Cameron and all the other senior politicians and civil servant who did the prestigious PPE (politics, philosophy and economics) course at Oxford agree with him?

RRocks

bacon · 09/12/2010 14:11

Statements on Jeremy Vine earlier - Pointless degrees - Media studies etc, are these courses run to keep some of these so called lecturers in jobs? I agree!!! I've met some "lecturers" recently from our local college - really they dont inspire me! Earning god knows what ridiculous salary. Some never been in industry, havent a clue in the real world either. Too much book not enough real!

I would also question a post grad should leave to earn 21K plus, Yes, with all that extra education, costs to the tax payer etc - a good degree, in the majority of cases, should give a post grad a min of 20k. Anyless then the degree was pointless or they arent bright enough! Fair play I have met some very very dim post grads.

Suppose with the dropping of the apprenterships in the late 80's had a determental effect on average intels flooding into polys/unis when really the hands on approach with skills would of been more apt.

Most people I know are not uni educated however they earn a considerable salary, have skills and graft. I work partly in construction - a good machine driver can earn £50k plus. I know plenty of manual workers earning £70k.

Whats wrong with teaching our children that being an intelligent plummer with yr own business can earn you a good living?

maypole1 · 09/12/2010 15:04

i think its part of our benefit culture that we have be come used to getting everything for free now we all actually have to look after our own children its come as a bit a shock to some

i am on a low income but don't get any help from the state i have already saved 3k for my son he is 10 so i am half way there.

my American friend is shocked we get so much free and still have the check to complain to be honest if you have to pay 9k to go to oxford its a bargain compared to say Harvard or brown in the states you would easily pay 15 or 20k to go their

not every child is uni bound the change is coming we cant afford it any more people doing stupid degrees at the tax payers expense and whats more shocking their parents allowing them to take up golf management and such but i guess when things are free people will make such choices

well hopefully we will se a bit less media studies and a bit more math going on in uni

if their not clever enough to get into a uni to do a sound degree should they be at uni and what more i never met a poor barrister, doctor or engineer so all this bleating about paying 6k back when they could potentially be on a 40K SALREY is bit off

harvalp · 09/12/2010 15:07

'prestigious PPE'
Actually, that's one of the real problems. There are far too many generalists in positions of power. That has to change before anything else, but I don't know how you do it.

maypole1 · 09/12/2010 15:15

my bil has just got a first in art Hmm well has he got a job no will he get one in "art" unlikey so can someone please tell me why we should fund these people to the tune of 3k plus living costs, i v said it before and i will say it again if the fees were 9k he would of done law and would of walked straight into a job plus he wouldn't be claiming the job seekers he is now because their are not alot of need for sculptors in 2010

these measures will force out the weak students and make the strong ones choose wisely

our degrees are the equivalent of the zimbabwean dollar not worth anything devalued

when you get the Welsh College of Horticulture is offering anyone with four Cs at GCSE the chance to study for an Honours degree in "Equestrian Psychology"!

THEN YOU KNOW THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE SHAME ON LABOUR FOR LETTING THINGS GET THIS FAR

ledkrsbellyislikesantas · 09/12/2010 15:27

Isnt 9k still heavily subsidised?My ds went to a dance school wt the same time as his peers went off to uni,it was 38k for 3yr course,no chance of a student loan at the time so had to audition for a scholarship otherwise couldnt have gone.
I do think that higher earning families will pay for their kids fees which isnt fair on the less able families,but if they pick the right course they can easily earn far more than someone without a degree,they could also do what students used to do ie work part time jobs,go out a little less and cook food rather than dine out,that would reduce the eventual debt accrued from living expenses.
Oh and dh has a degree in art and is a flipping copper we will be paying off the loan for a few more years yet,i di mine in nursing therefore got a better paid job and maine is paid.

maypole1 · 09/12/2010 15:33

hurling paint pots at the police and then they wonder why they are being kettled Hmm

they need to try and go to harvard oe brown then they will bloody know about fees

Xenia · 09/12/2010 15:37

Most student work now under the current system.

Hopefully as said above it will mean useless institutions and children who just aren't bright enough to be on degree courses and are wasting time when they could be working or doing other things will stop being conned into doing useless degrees.

It will be easier for anyone of any income level in the top say 15% by IQ to get into university as no fees are paid up front under the new system. We can also ensure that things which don't really need degrees are removed from needing degrees.

Yes I understand £9k is the average cost - about 100% of the state funding goes and 100% is put on to the student.

Maypole - more lawyers are out of work when finishing at the moment than in work so he might not have walked into a job. The graduate market in most subjects is a bloodbath at present and even jobs in cars are hard to be had with your degree.

maypole1 · 09/12/2010 15:47

never met a starving barrister but meet a few staring artist last one i saw was at kings cross trying to sell his artWink

my money would be on him being an artist and not finding works as opposed to if he become a barrister

i would like to see the stats unemployment amongst people with a first in law to people with a first in art Hmm

granted · 09/12/2010 16:10

maypole, you also ignore that you are comparing apples and oranges. In the US, Harvard etc are not public universities - they are private. Public universities in the US are much much cheaper - more like $5,000 - not £9,000 per annum. So about a third of the cost suggested for UK universities in future per annum - roughly what our degrees cost now.

So poorer US students have the option of going to a much cheaper public university, which there is no equivalent to in the UK.

Moreover, although Harvard etc charge far more poor year, no-one who is bright, rich or poor, actually pays that - they have a huge and all-encompassing range of bursaries, thanks to much more generous alumni than here - as an example, which I've given before, my 2 brothers both did postgraduate study at Ivy League universities in the US, and neither paid a penny - both received bursaries for all fees.

Again, there is no equivalent here.

ledkrsbellyislikesantas · 09/12/2010 16:16

maypole have you ever seen a starving "sports scientist" or "golf manger"
Think people wopuld be more sympathetic if the degrees were relevant to the development of usefull careers.
I live in uni town and have to say the students here live very well,out most nights,dressed in labelled clothes and eating in nandos-ok that is a massive generalisation but i have spoken to ds's student mates and a lot of them really do go for the social life and see it as a "right of passage"fair enough but dont expect people in ordinary employment and paying off their own student loans to fund it.

sincitylover · 09/12/2010 16:21

the police tend to engineer these situations to ramp up the protestors imho.

ledkrsbellyislikesantas · 09/12/2010 16:23

They certainly have away of winding people up sincity i remember from my "sab" days,and thats the opinion of a coppers wife!

Swipe left for the next trending thread