Police endanger the lives of students, schoolchildren and others on 24th Nov. Tuition Fees Demonstration

[dotnet]

At the London demo, police 'kettled' the demonstrators mid-afternoon, just as many people were wanting to leave.
The police showed contempt to the schoolchildren, students, parents and lecturers. They lied to them repeatedly; when someone asked how they could get out of the confinement area, they'd indicate a police cordon opposite, or at the other end of the area,even though none existed - the plods at every exit were barring the way, riot shields in hand, making a 'wall.' No exits were opened from mid-afternoon until about 6.30, and all this time, many- probably most - of those present simply wanted to leave the area, having made their point.
There were thousands of people in a confined space, and nearly all of the kids' behaviour was exemplary despite the utter frustration of being penned up against their will. I even saw some sixth formers (or younger) doing the Hokey Cokey. Bless! - they deserved better treatment than they got.
TWO Portaloos were brought in, and no food or water. A relative of mine came down Whitehall to ask why on earth I had been trapped, and again - was met with lies. 'All the demonstrators can leave whenever they want' she was told. 'Well, if that is so, why is no-one leaving?' she asked. 'It's because they're happy where they are' lied the plod.
Should the police not be charged with False Imprisonment? If I locked someone in my house against their will, that would be the charge I would have to face. Yet the police think it is perfectly fine to coop up thousands of young people and to lie that that is where they want to be, closing their ears to the repeated chant of 'let us leave, let us leave.'
Or perhaps reckless endangerment to life would fit the bill. It was an idiotic, dangerous and thoroughly irresponsible decision by the Head of the Metropolitan Police (I suppose)to concur with the way his force operated yesterday. People have been crushed to death in similar oonfined spaces (remember that terrible football stadium tragedy?)
Those young demonstrators are people's loved children. Shocking that the Metropolitan Police force is filled with such contempt for young life and limb.

[claig]

'I would object to 'spolit whingers with an unwarranted sense of entitlement' too. I just don't know any.'

Have you looked at the Labour front bench recently?

grannieonabike has made good points. We are still a free country and people should be allowed to protest. I can't believe that these high fees are really necessary when countries like Scotland and France don't have them. The Chinese also have free university education and have far more students than us.

[grannieonabike]

The Chinese along with most of the rest of the world, it seems to me, really value education. They know it's the only way out of poverty and inequality.

[Desiderata]

Claig, the reason Scotland has no tuition fees is because the English and the Welsh are paying for it.

[NurseSunshine]

Moondog, yes I'd be interested to know what's so funny about Ian Tomlinson's death as well, actually? And the fact that it quite easily might happen again? To someone's chilsd this time, rather than someone's father. Hilarious.

And as for complaining about spolit whingers, lucky you, with mummy and daddy paying for you to go to university (it's clearly made you a more open minded and thoughful person ), unfortunately a lot of people don't have those advantages. Please explain how they are spolit wingers?!

To everyone spouting BS about "friendship bracelet making degrees" - stop reading the Daily Fail, do some research and try having an original thought for once.

Desiderata I find your screen name strangely at odds with your attitude. Were you referring to Max Ehrmann? If so I suggest you read the piece again.

[Desiderata]

Oh dear, nursey.

My given name is purely intentional. You obviously have no sense of irony.

There's no education on earth that can pay for that

[moondog]

'do some research and try having an original thought for once'

You might start with yourself Nurse and have a go at reading properly.

[Desiderata]

.. and my final thought on this, sunshine (and you have a problem with my name?), is that if you were university educated, you would surely know that the word is 'whingers.'

Ha ha

Now go make a bomb ...

[newwave]

Back to the protests, if the Police are now going to indulge in their normal thugish behaviour at demos then they should not be suprised if some of the demonstrators come prepared next time. For example thunderflashes and marbles to stop horse charges. They can claim (like the Police do when indulging in their violence) that they felt threatened and scared for their safety.

[maypole1]

if they wernt their they could not have been kettled, and i for one would have been asking my teen why the hell wernt they at school not asking the police any questions.

[edam]

I do hope someone at school explains the concept of democracy to your children, maypole. Doesn't sound as if they'll find out at home.

[dotnet]

I looked at that Independent article Moondog posted, and it turned my stomach. When I got to the paragraph which began 'The shock was that the tenagers, perhaps for the firs time in their lives, were not allowed to do what they wanted', I got so indignant I couldn't read beyond that paragraph.

The shock is actually that in this country we DON'T have proper democracy. The demonstration wasn't allowed anywhere near the houses of parliament, the cradle of our liberties - hah! We were stopped from moving in procession along the streets of London - our streets - and we were stopped from going home.

It's more comfortable for the government to know that there's a demonstration going on a long way away - easier to ignore.

THAT'S why the Nov 10 demo was a success. It shook 'em up. But the longer pressure is put on the govt over this pernicious plan - even if that pressure is somewhat deflated by what our 'protectors' the police are instructed to do to suppress us - the more embarrassing it's going to be.

Incidentally, on the church service from Greyfriars Church, Edinburgh, being broadcast on R4 as I type this, someone has just said 'We pray for students anxious for thieir future'. Amen to that.

[grannieonabike]

There's not much peaceful demonstrators can do about the violent elements, except what some brave individuals who were on the spot did do, trying to stop them.

But when there are peaceful demonstrations in several cities on the same day and people can see for themselves what actually goes on, there will be fewer teenager-hating articles, and the kids will win over public opinion by their good behaviour. If they give the police no cause to use heavy-handed tactics, any police officer who goes OTT will stand out and, hopefully, be clearly in the wrong. But they should come prepared with blankets and potties!

The other scenario is that the more hot-headed and unruly elements among the demonstrators get the upper hand, the police tactics get more heavy-handed and the whole thing escalates. Too horrible to contemplate.

Education is worth fighting for. With the support of the general public, I'm sure the students will make a difference. I think there's a good chance the government will think again. There's a lot to hope for.

[newwave]

Maypole1, you really are a reactionary @#:£# dosent your teen have the right to democratic protest or do you run all aspects of your teens life.

edam has it spot on.

[moondog]

'I looked at that Independent article Moondog posted, and it turned my stomach. When I got to the paragraph which began 'The shock was that the tenagers, perhaps for the firs time in their lives, were not allowed to do what they wanted', I got so indignant I couldn't read beyond that paragraph.'

You know what Dot, it might do you good to actually think about a viewpoint that doesn't exactly mirror your own tired view of 'society' being crushed under the boot of a sinister elite.

[dotnet]

Moondog, you'd be surprised if you met me you know. I can't actually remember the last demo I went on (before the Nov 24 one, I mean.) I'm inclined to sit in my chair and harrumph a bit when I hear things are afoot which I don't like. I didn't like the introduction of tuition fees for students AT ALL, and did a lot of mental harrumphing and then started putting dd's child benefit money into an account I opened so she wouldn't have to pay for her fees - I didn't see why she should, I hadn't paid for mine, plus, very soon, she will be paying for my old age pension, so I owe her that at least.

This latest is just a step too far, that's all. As Grannieonabike said, forward-looking countries value education and provide it for free. If we can't afford it because we have slightly over-egged the pudding by hugely expanding degree level course provision - well there are ways to adjust that without actually snatching away from people the chance of any higher education.

Our children must not be 'kettled' into having to pay for the old folks' pensions AND their own education in youth as well.

[dotnet]

p.s. Grannieonabike, I'm a little bit hopeful as well; there's even a bit of an indication on this thread that parents might increasingly become actively involved.

[grannieonabike]

One good thing about this country is that we don't have to pay for our kids' textbooks, as they do in many other countries.

Yes Dotnet, this generation needs all the help it can get. It is the only generation that is entirely innocent of causing the financial crisis. We have to help them as much as we can!

Saving CB is such a good idea, if you can. In my family, we have an emergency fund, a joint account. All the adults in employment pay into it - as much as they can afford - and everyone takes from it what they need.

[Kaloki]

dotnet do you know when the next protest is?

[NurseSunshine]

Well done for spotting a typo Desiderata. You can feel nice and smug now.

Moondog, interesting how you didn't reply to my question about Tomlinson.

Back to your original point about kettling OP, it is dangerous. When you pen people in, they are very likely to panic, try to run. Which gives the police the perfect opportunity to beat the crap out of them.

Grannie, that's a lovely way of doing things.

[dotnet]

Hi Kaloki - it's on Tuesday. I also saw that someone else posted - not sure if it's in this thread - that there'll be another one on December 5th. That's a Sunday, I think. The person who posted said the idea of the Dec. 5th one was to bring out older people who haven't been able to take time off work for the other demos.
I'm pretty sure about the protest this coming Tuesday (I'll get myself over to my nearest university for that one I think, or at least I'll collar someone there for advice as to the best way to help.)
As for the Dec. 5th one, Kaloki, - keep looking in the internet. I don't know where the Mumsnet poster got her information from, although I expect it's accurate.
By the way, good for you.

[Kaloki]

Dammit, got to sort out finding housing on Tues. Will keep my eyes open for the Dec one then.

[dotnet]

NurseSunshine - absolutely (about kettling.) I don't actually know how nice people can stay in the police - not if they know that when working at demonstrations, they are expected and encouraged to treat good and decent people - and for God's sake, schoolchildren now - like vermin.
I'd fancy the pay, but I think I'd not stay long if I got as far as putting on the uniform.

[Kaloki]

dotnet I disagree with you about the police. I have some good friends in the police, one of whom is highly likely to be roped in to doing work at the riots. It's not an easy job, they want it to be peaceful as much as the protesters. There may be some who get off on the violence, same as within the protesters. And it's those who make it awful for everyone else. But for the most part they are just trying to make things safe, and there aren't too many alternatives to kettling really as far as I'm aware.

What would your technique be to deal with a situation which has quite a large potential to become violent? (Which all protests do unfortunately, it doesn't take too many people to cause total chaos)

[Showaddywaddy]

I have 3 degrees. I paid for all of them myself. Am I allowed an opinion or to post on this thread? It appears to have quite a bearing on whether your opinions or educational background are the things addressed.

Will be back later for the consensus. Must nip off right now as dh (plod a policeman) is outside kicking a bag of puppies and the noise is ruining my enjoyment of my Sunday afternoon MNing.

[moondog]

No Nurse, because it is a puerile and hysterical one.
So I can't be arsed.