Police endanger the lives of students, schoolchildren and others on 24th Nov. Tuition Fees Demonstration

[dotnet]

At the London demo, police 'kettled' the demonstrators mid-afternoon, just as many people were wanting to leave.
The police showed contempt to the schoolchildren, students, parents and lecturers. They lied to them repeatedly; when someone asked how they could get out of the confinement area, they'd indicate a police cordon opposite, or at the other end of the area,even though none existed - the plods at every exit were barring the way, riot shields in hand, making a 'wall.' No exits were opened from mid-afternoon until about 6.30, and all this time, many- probably most - of those present simply wanted to leave the area, having made their point.
There were thousands of people in a confined space, and nearly all of the kids' behaviour was exemplary despite the utter frustration of being penned up against their will. I even saw some sixth formers (or younger) doing the Hokey Cokey. Bless! - they deserved better treatment than they got.
TWO Portaloos were brought in, and no food or water. A relative of mine came down Whitehall to ask why on earth I had been trapped, and again - was met with lies. 'All the demonstrators can leave whenever they want' she was told. 'Well, if that is so, why is no-one leaving?' she asked. 'It's because they're happy where they are' lied the plod.
Should the police not be charged with False Imprisonment? If I locked someone in my house against their will, that would be the charge I would have to face. Yet the police think it is perfectly fine to coop up thousands of young people and to lie that that is where they want to be, closing their ears to the repeated chant of 'let us leave, let us leave.'
Or perhaps reckless endangerment to life would fit the bill. It was an idiotic, dangerous and thoroughly irresponsible decision by the Head of the Metropolitan Police (I suppose)to concur with the way his force operated yesterday. People have been crushed to death in similar oonfined spaces (remember that terrible football stadium tragedy?)
Those young demonstrators are people's loved children. Shocking that the Metropolitan Police force is filled with such contempt for young life and limb.

[Kaloki]

I have mixed feelings on this. I totally agree with the protests.. but I also have a lot of sympathy with the riot police. It may have been a peaceful protest, but they aren't psychic, they have to be prepared for the worst case scenario. If they hadn't used the kettling technique then could you guarantee that the violent rioters (as opposed to the protesters) wouldn't have caused further damage and/or injury?

[grannieonabike]

Kaloki, what worries me more than what actually happened at the last demo is the tone of the remarks of the high-ranking police officers who have been interviewed in the news and in papers (one from the Met and one from South Yorkshire, I think). They are talking about demonstrators as if they are all criminals.

The police know they are being filmed at these demos so there is great pressure on them to behave appropriately. I worry that these remarks demonise young people and mean that 'appropriately' in their eyes is OTT in the eyes of the demonstrators and will escalate the violence.

[moondog]

Another good comment on their self indulgence in the Independent.

[dotnet]

The 'violent rioters' in the kettle were kids horsing about and no, I certainly wouldn't assume they wouldn't break more glass or spray more graffiti, given the chance. But my guess is the police van which got damaged was put there deliberately. Even if it wasn't, there would have been no problem in getting it out of the kettle, so why was it left there?
The protesters were filmed by the cops, probably every last one of us - I know I was, I saw it happening.
Given that the kettle had been made (and you could make a case for that, if you think it was worth spending a million pounds plus on massive policing - horses, dogs, helicopters, vans, many hundreds of riot police -in order to catch - ooh, maybe ten? fifteen? people causing damage to property)- then it would have been the easiest thing in the world to let all those people who wanted to leave, come out, two or three abreast as and when they wanted to. The van dancers graffiti-ers and sprayers would have been easy to pick up. Oh yes, and somebody smashed the glass of a bus stop and someone also smashed a small pane of glass in a multi-paned door.
That was about the extent of it. It wasn't big and it wasn't clever, but it wasn't violent, it was stupid horseplay and venting of feelings at being caged up.

[edam]

Moondog - what, precisely, is so amusing about the death of Mr Tomlinson?

[moondog]

Your earnest posturing just makes you look even more foolish, Edam.

[edam]

If it's foolish to feel sorry that a man died then I'm happy to be a fool, Moondog.

What does laughing at his death make you, exactly?

[grannieonabike]

Dotnet, you reminded me of something I was thinking earlier. Yes, the police would have been filming you, and you probably are on their database. One or other of the police spokesmen I was talking about earlier has also mentioned 'intelligence' as a way of fighting demonstrators.

I wish it was the other sort ...

[grannieonabike]

Moondog, still don't understand what you (and others) find so offensive about teenagers. Do you also hate old people? Men?

If there's anything wrong with teenagers today, then who's responsible? Your generation and mine.

[moondog]

I don't find men or teenagers or old people offensive. I am a very happily married privileged person with an impeccable education (having attended a trio of excellent universities.)
I object to spolit whingers with an unwarranted sense of entitlement.

Oh, and holier than thou earnest types like you lot.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Did you have to pay fees Moondog?

[moondog]

I've just paid £££££ for my recently completed MSc. Was very happy to do so too.

[grannieonabike]

OK Moondog, can I suggest a truce? How about we discuss the issues, express our views reasonably and give eachother's opiniona the consideration they deserve? I'd be up for that.

Btw, I'm being genuine. I really want to know how we can resolve this difficult situation. It's important to take different opinions into account, imo.

[Kaloki]

The problem is dotnet, the protest before did involve violence, they had no way of knowing that it wouldn't go that way again.

In an ideal world the hooligans wouldn't hijack peaceful protests for their own means, or if they did, they would be easily identifiable so they could be removed. In that ideal world the police could stay away. No one would get hurt, scared or have their property damaged (on both sides)

But while those idiots are still there, the police have to be prepared for the worst, because the alternative is being blamed for sitting back and doing nothing.

Blaming the police, although I can see the reasons, is missing the point. In the same way that blaming the students is missing the point. It is neither of those parties faults. It's the rioters that turn up to these events that are at fault.

Kettling isn't ideal, no, but in all honesty, how many other methods are there available bearing in mind they were aware that there was a high chance there were rioters in amongst the students?

Have to say as well, leaving the van there as bait? Even if this was the case it didn't mean anyone had to vandalise it.

[Kaloki]

And before anyone says I'm against the students, if I'd been aware of the last protest I'd have gone myself. Walking stick and all.

[moondog]

I didn't realise we were arguing.
You express an opinion and I express another.
Just because I don't agree with what you say doesn't mean that I don't read it and consider it.

I'm not the one calling people 'dim' aand 'bitter' either. It amuses me no end but it is one which does not endear me to the arguments voiced here.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Moondog - Genuine question - what about the other two university courses? Did you have to pay for them too?

[grannieonabike]

What has struck me from reading some posts on here is how hostile some people feel towards students. I don't understand why. To me that's like feeling hostile towards shop-keepers or nursery nurses. Why single out a section of society like this? Were they bitten by a rabid chemistry student once or something?

[grannieonabike]

Moondog - I think you've already answered my question, actually. I would object to 'spolit whingers with an unwarranted sense of entitlement' too. I just don't know any.

[moondog]

My parents contributed to 1st, then there was actually a 2nd for which I didn't get much at all as cocked up the 1st, so I happily worked 3 days a week for duration of course (and still easily managed a 2:1).

For the third, I won a very generous scholarship as it was vocational training. For this last one, I paid.

The idea that a hefty slice of the population is entitled to a university education is madness. It is elitist, that's the whole bloody point.

[granted]

So basically you got 2 free degrees but would deny others the chance to get one.

Hypocrite.

Oh, and ehy did you 'cock up' your first degree?

Wasn't because you were too dim, was it?

Your type can be spotted a mile off.

[granted]

I agree that degrees are not for everyone - clearly you wasted the govt's cash with your first one, so should not, by your own admission, have been allowed to do it.

I trust you're planning to repay my hard-earned taxes, you lazy scrounger?

[moondog]

Granted, you are funny.
Unintentionally so but it is there somewhere, through the bile and peevishness.
Carry on, while I pour myelf a glass of wine.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

My parents contributed some to my first - but only my living expenses, not the cost of the course.

I kind of agree that degrees were elitist, or should be, but not on the basis of MONEY. My dad was gifted, from working class background, but got a degree from Oxford (as did my mum)

Maybe all of those older graduates who have benefited from the FREE education that the taxpayer stumped up for should join in by paying higher taxes

[granted]

Humour hardly unintentional, moondog, but glad you enjoyed it and that you can cope with irony given your reduced intellect. :)

NSF - well said.

I'm all in favour of elitism based on merit - but NOT on money.