Police endanger the lives of students, schoolchildren and others on 24th Nov. Tuition Fees Demonstration

[dotnet]

At the London demo, police 'kettled' the demonstrators mid-afternoon, just as many people were wanting to leave.
The police showed contempt to the schoolchildren, students, parents and lecturers. They lied to them repeatedly; when someone asked how they could get out of the confinement area, they'd indicate a police cordon opposite, or at the other end of the area,even though none existed - the plods at every exit were barring the way, riot shields in hand, making a 'wall.' No exits were opened from mid-afternoon until about 6.30, and all this time, many- probably most - of those present simply wanted to leave the area, having made their point.
There were thousands of people in a confined space, and nearly all of the kids' behaviour was exemplary despite the utter frustration of being penned up against their will. I even saw some sixth formers (or younger) doing the Hokey Cokey. Bless! - they deserved better treatment than they got.
TWO Portaloos were brought in, and no food or water. A relative of mine came down Whitehall to ask why on earth I had been trapped, and again - was met with lies. 'All the demonstrators can leave whenever they want' she was told. 'Well, if that is so, why is no-one leaving?' she asked. 'It's because they're happy where they are' lied the plod.
Should the police not be charged with False Imprisonment? If I locked someone in my house against their will, that would be the charge I would have to face. Yet the police think it is perfectly fine to coop up thousands of young people and to lie that that is where they want to be, closing their ears to the repeated chant of 'let us leave, let us leave.'
Or perhaps reckless endangerment to life would fit the bill. It was an idiotic, dangerous and thoroughly irresponsible decision by the Head of the Metropolitan Police (I suppose)to concur with the way his force operated yesterday. People have been crushed to death in similar oonfined spaces (remember that terrible football stadium tragedy?)
Those young demonstrators are people's loved children. Shocking that the Metropolitan Police force is filled with such contempt for young life and limb.

[electrokin]

"Micky Mouse degrees in non-vocational subjects"

Can we have a clarification on what counts as "Mickey Mouse" please?

I mean my degree is in a non-vocational subject, but I now teach that non-vocational subject. Does that mean it was pointless me aspiring to go to university?

What about all the people who have degrees entirely unrelated to their job, but the employer wanted people with degrees? I know plenty of people in sales and finance who couldn't have got their job without a degree, but certainly don't have degrees in "sales" or "finance."

[kate1956]

3rd day of action is Sunday 5th December so that non-students can show their support!

[granted]

Thank you!

But I'm booked for several kids' parties that day. :(

[granted]

Thanks, Grannie - enjoyed that link!

[dotnet]

Desiderata, your Princessness, actually up to a point we can agree. I do think that education for ALL is a great thing, but I think that degree level courses just aren't a good fit for everybody; yet the perception now is, everyone has to go in for a degree. I know a girl who might find the course she eventually got on to very, very hard, and for what she wants to do, I would think a much shorter course requiring more doing and admin skills, would suit her better.
But even if a decision was made to provide more short courses in the future, which would ease the problem as you see it, - we mustn't betray the teenagers going through the system as it is now. They haven't done anything to hurt us; in fact they are our future, and they will be paying for our old age pensions. I can't NOT do what I can to try to protect their expectations. It's just plain wrong for an adult to tell a child 'Oh well, I had a full grant and no fees to pay, but tough shit, you can take out a massive loan and start paying it off when you're approaching thirty, I don't care if it messes up your chance of getting a place of your own to live in, I'm all right Jack.'
Do we hate our children or something?

p.s. Also - message for Edam - I enjoy your posts, and meant to put in your name as well when I said to Grannieonabike and fluffles that I was putting up an extract from dd's letter.

[Desiderata]

Electrokin, you don't seem to be getting my point. I guess you're just a reactionary by nature.

How is the country supposed to pay for all these students?

I think it's perfectly reasonable that no one has to pay back their loans until they earn £21K.

If they never earn £21K, they don't have to pay it back at all.

I'm not interested in the emotions, tbh. Just the economics.

So you got a degree in a non-vocational subject, and you now teach it. Simplistically, it sounds like all the money you've ever earned in your life has come from the government, in one form or another.

Communism, anyone?

[dotnet]

Oh yes, Grannieonabike, that piece of film is just lovely. I can't believe I was ever as cute as that (although I know I was, once.) I NEVER was able to dance though. There is ONE person there who might have been me dancing - it's a bloke - he's the only one who really isn't getting it right. Still, it's a great piece of film, good for UCL, and good for the dancingly challenged dancer for taking part. Great to see him having a good time and not worrying.
I was preening like mad last night because my dd had told me that her friends involved in the protest where she is, SANG A SONG for me when they heard I'd been to London and got kettled in Whitehall! An adapted version of 'Stacy's Mum' including a bit about going to the demo. I was SO-O-O touched. :)

[Desiderata]

.. and dodnet, explain the Princess Ann thing. I'm not getting it!

I mean, I like the old gal, but what's she got to do with student protests?

[electrokin]

Well now, it's been a while since I've been called that.

Actually no, I had a very nice job for many years then retrained as a teacher. But I guess living in black and white makes that hard to imagine.

I think it is entirely reasonable that no one has to pay back their loans until they earn 21K, however the reality of student life is that loans are all students have to live on. The average student is going to leave Uni with around 12k in loans anyway.
But loans shouldn't be what tuition fees pay, not if this country wants there to be equality in education. Otherwise we return to a situation where bright and capable people in our society do not get educated, while the wealthy who can afford to get their "Mickey mouse" degrees.

As for how you want us to pay for it? I'd love us to come into line with many other European countries with a truly progressive tax code that has several higher brackets going up to say 56% on really high incomes such as Sweden has. Incidentally Sweden provides free university for all residents...

And on the note of being called a communist I think I am going to bow out of this debate. I fear Goddard's law might be the inevitable next step.

Night all.

[granted]

Desidearata - "So you got a degree in a non-vocational subject, and you now teach it. Simplistically, it sounds like all the money you've ever earned in your life has come from the government, in one form or another."

The govt don't have any money - it's our money.

Is our money well spent on learning things without an immediate economic impact? Depends what you see is the point/value of eduation.

If it is just to make more money, bring more cash into the country, then yes, banning eeryone from everything that's not manufacturing/exporting etc is ultimately pointless.

If, as I and most civilised people believe, education hs a greater value and there is more to life than money (hell, even David Cameron wants to easure happiness, now!), then studying and indeed teaching subjects without an immediate economic impact is extremely worthwhile, both for the individuals concerned and wider society.

[electrokin]

Obviously I mean Godwin's law

[grannieonabike]

Thanks, Betelguese, but all I want to hear Clegg say is 'OK, raising fees was a bad idea. We'll raise taxes instead.'

[granted]

I quite like Godard's law - is it the one where conversation inevitably returns to the European film industry?

[thereiver]

the students present were just lazy idle dropouts. Boo Hoo they will have to pay money, well welcome to the real world. top drinking stop the parties stop the stupid gap years and get a job whilst you are there. yes there are plenty about.the majority of the degrees are a waste of time any ways.
as for the kids been scared well tough if they want to play at riots well accept the results

my main concern was that the liberal police senior officers didnt send in TAG teams as soon as the scum attacked the van, it should have been a baton charge to remove them supported by dogs and horses. Worked against the minors so this preschool rabble would have run.
after all those were the tactics against the really peaceful pro hunting supporters.

[kate1956]

thereiver - what a pile of crap you're spouting - the students and schoolchildren who want to be able to get an education are certainly not lazy idle dropouts - they are people who want an education and to have decent careers when they are older.

Unfortunately with the proposals this govcernment are making it's only the lazy idle rich who will be able to afford it.

Thank goodness people like you are in the minority.

[edam]

BBC news reporting the Met have been exposed as liars. They denied mounted police charged the crowd - and what has just emerged on video footage..?

theiriver - the clue is in the word student... a dropout is someone who stops being a student.

[moondog]

'Emily Davies threw herself under a horse for you. These kids are doing it for all of us. They're trying to protect our precious education system.'

Well Grannie, you are hilarious. I can only assume this is meant to be a joke or why else would you be daring even to compare a woman who gave her life to a cause to a bunch of spolit kids whingeing because some of us don't want to be paying for their degrees in friendship bracelet making?


Oh, and by the way, her name was Davison not Davies. It has more impact if you get the most basic facts correct.

[huddspur]

I support the campaign against raising tuition fees but I'm not sure you can compare to the suffrage movement to be honest

[grannieonabike]

I think at the back of my mind I was trying to make the point that people's protests can be effective. The suffragettes (and suffragists) got us the vote; Greenham raised awareness world wide and was a huge thorn in the side of the armed forces as they tried to move cruise missiles around; France in 1968, go back further to the French Revolution, even further to the Peasants' Revolt - you can achieve change this way.

I think you can compare mass protests and campaigns - they obviously have aspects in common. I really, really hope no-one gets killed in the students' demos, though.

Moondog - I don't understand why you describe them as 'a bunch of spolit kids whingeing because some of us don't want to be paying for their degrees in friendship bracelet making?' Why are you so hostile towards them?

[granted]

Because moondog is another one too dim to have gone to university, I expect. And bitter about it.

There's no way anyone who themselves went to university and benefitted from a free education themselves would be such a hypocrite, is there? (Tory/Lib Dem MPs excepted, obviously - they are the definition of 'hypocrite'.)

[granted]

huddspur - of course you can usefully compare on thing to another.

It's not the same as stating they are identical.

[dotnet]

I'll drop the Princess Anne thing now, Desiderata, though there are certain similarities. The 'going to university is an overrated pastime' quote - I thought you took that tack too. And wasn't it you who said I should go and clean some bogs? Similar use of language methinks; P. Anne told reporters to 'bog off'....

However I don't want to turn this discussion flippant, it's interesting and the subject is important.

Just to add a bit to the subject of the Student fees protest, - I was pleased to hear on radio 4(this morning) that someone important at the Charities Commission (didn't catch her name - she has a title) has pointed out that universities will LOSE lots of money - something to do with charitable status (I'll have to listen again to get the interview in full)- if they seriously intend to put up their fees in a big way. She said, to avoid losing their funding they would have to be able to prove in a copper-bottomed way that NO prospective student would be disadvantaged/put off by
much higher fees.
Good, good, good. That looks as if it'll make the Cam/Clegg machiavellian plot more difficult to enact than they thought.

[dotnet]

And Moondog, don't be nasty to Grannie. Heaven forfend that anyone might die in the course of this protest, but as far as I'm concerned, the more the police keep their batons, their dogs, their horses and their hands to themselves, the safer people are. Now that we know the line is that there'll be massive police presences at future demos, - in my view, we're LESS safe. I'm genuinely frightened that one of their number (and it only takes one) - will kill again.

[moondog]

'I'm genuinely frightened that one of their number (and it only takes one) - will kill again.'