Police endanger the lives of students, schoolchildren and others on 24th Nov. Tuition Fees Demonstration

[dotnet]

At the London demo, police 'kettled' the demonstrators mid-afternoon, just as many people were wanting to leave.
The police showed contempt to the schoolchildren, students, parents and lecturers. They lied to them repeatedly; when someone asked how they could get out of the confinement area, they'd indicate a police cordon opposite, or at the other end of the area,even though none existed - the plods at every exit were barring the way, riot shields in hand, making a 'wall.' No exits were opened from mid-afternoon until about 6.30, and all this time, many- probably most - of those present simply wanted to leave the area, having made their point.
There were thousands of people in a confined space, and nearly all of the kids' behaviour was exemplary despite the utter frustration of being penned up against their will. I even saw some sixth formers (or younger) doing the Hokey Cokey. Bless! - they deserved better treatment than they got.
TWO Portaloos were brought in, and no food or water. A relative of mine came down Whitehall to ask why on earth I had been trapped, and again - was met with lies. 'All the demonstrators can leave whenever they want' she was told. 'Well, if that is so, why is no-one leaving?' she asked. 'It's because they're happy where they are' lied the plod.
Should the police not be charged with False Imprisonment? If I locked someone in my house against their will, that would be the charge I would have to face. Yet the police think it is perfectly fine to coop up thousands of young people and to lie that that is where they want to be, closing their ears to the repeated chant of 'let us leave, let us leave.'
Or perhaps reckless endangerment to life would fit the bill. It was an idiotic, dangerous and thoroughly irresponsible decision by the Head of the Metropolitan Police (I suppose)to concur with the way his force operated yesterday. People have been crushed to death in similar oonfined spaces (remember that terrible football stadium tragedy?)
Those young demonstrators are people's loved children. Shocking that the Metropolitan Police force is filled with such contempt for young life and limb.

[dotnet]

What a surprise, UCL students!
'They' seem to be running scared now. It could still go either way, but you are working hard to stand up for your younger brothers, sisters friends etc., and I take my hat off to you for that.
To anyone who reads this thread - the vote on Student fees uprating will be NEXT THURSDAY - the Conservatives have brought it forward, it looks as if they're becoming aware there's far more opposition to their plan than they'd realised, and they want to fool as many people as possible into thinking the country as a whole is perfectly happy to see our student children beggared from the age of eighteen.

[EducationForAll]

The government is trying to impose 80% cuts to university funding and a trebling of university fees to £9000 per year. They are also scrapping Educational Maintenance Allowance- the money given to some A level students so that they can afford to support themselves at college. Many of you will know about these measures already.

I am writing from University College London's occupation; students at UCL feel so strongly about these changes that we are occupying a room in our university to pressure our management into condemning the cuts. Our occupation has support from the NUS, Billy Bragg, Polly Toynbee, Chomsky and many others. As has been reported in the media thousands of students have taken to the streets in protest. The changes will not affect us directly as our fees are set at £3000 but we are campaigning for the next generation of children who are faced with excessive levels of debt and under-funded universities.

We know that it's a lot easier for students to protest than people with families but we would love to involve you in our campaign. If you, like us, feel these cuts are unfair and want to be heard, send a picture like this one

ucloccupation.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/i'm-a-baby- not-a-cash-cow/
NB- please take out the space between 'baby-' and 'not' in the web address.
Feel free to use a different slogan.
Send the picture to [email protected].

We also hope to stand with you on any further peaceful protests. Parents and Students- let's stand together!

Follow our campaign on www.ucloccupation.com

[dotnet]

Is this thread running out of steam? (sounds like a mixed metaphor.)

I'm thinking people probably aren't looking at it now because we've gone on to talk about matters other than the kettling of students and their treatment by the police, so the heading is misleading, really.

So if it IS fizzling out, I'd like to say thankyou to everyone who has contributed - it's been interesting - just fab - and bits of the thread have made me laugh out loud, as well.
Lovely.

To one of the most recent posters, SharronM1,- I think your point about taxation is a REALLY good one. Of course we can afford to continue funding our students - even if the existing 'gold standard' of three year degree courses for 50% of school leavers (arguably) could be pared down, with the balance made up by shorter, quality training courses.

I didn't remember your figures on corporation tax, SharronM1, but that was an interesting thing to highlight. I do remember when the general taxation rate was 32% in the 1970s.

We didn't sink into the ocean then, with the last remaining, emaciated survivor feebly singing The Red Flag as our island race sunk to its watery grave.

So - funding from tax CAN do it.

Trouble is, we are now under a right wing regime where tax increases can't be countenanced - that's always been the Conservative view, hasn't it? So, students and others will just have to keep fighting, fighting, fighting to claw every last concession from the out of touch bunch who are now our leaders. We're in for a rocky ride.

[dotnet]

That's a good point about a possible Conservative (wet) dream of many more private universities!

It's still all on knife edge, isn't it, this tuition fees uprating thing? But BRILLIANT to see the students in London sprinting around all afternoon and avoiding being kettled! It's just so good to see our students have woken up at last - and how!

Vince Cable's 'stance' makes me laugh. When he was in that three way debate with poor old (by me, much-missed) Gordon Brown and David Cameron, pre-election, he came across as really impressive. But now we know he is a man of straw.

Can anyone explain the forthcoming voting to me, please? I know that if the LibDems abstain, it won't help, so what's the rule - what percentage AGAINST does there have to be, in order to make Cam go back to the drawing board?

[SharronM1]

'general taxation was feasible' -
It still is. No one (yet) claims that funding primary or secondary education from taxation is not feasible.
Taxation spreads the cost of education which is not only of use to the student but to the whole of society.
Businesses like to hire graduates- presumably because they expect higher profits. Yet their taxes are going down and down. Corporation tax was once 52%, now 28% and this government has announced its reduction to 24%.
Why is £9000 feasible for the student? Expected debts of £40-50000 make university quite a risk.There's no guarantee of a good job- or indeed any job. And the increase to £21000 of the salary at which repayments are made does not alter the fact that the graduate is saddled with the debt.Interest rates on this debt could be sky high in the future.
Keep up the protests. Young people were once said to be apathetic about politics. Not now!

[SharronM1]

'general taxation was feasible' -
It still is. No one (yet) claims that funding primary or secondary education from taxation is not feasible.
Taxation spreads the cost of education which is not only of use to the student but to the whole of society.
Businesses like to hire graduates- presumably because they expect higher profits. Yet their taxes are going down and down. Corporation tax was once 52%, now 28% and this government has announced its reduction to 24%.
Why is £9000 feasible for the student? Expected debts of £40-50000 make university quite a risk.There's no guarantee of a good job- or indeed any job. And the increase to £21000 of the salary at which repayments are made does not alter the fact that the graduate is saddled with the debt.Interest rates on this debt could be sky high in the future.
Keep up the protests. Young people were once said to be apathetic about politics. Not now!

[grannieonabike]

I think at the back of someone's mind there might be the thought that if universities (except, perhaps, for the more prestigious ones)are systmatically worn down, then they will be ripe for privatisation bids when they come. So there'll be state unis and private unis, like state and private schools. Mark my words.

[slhilly]

Showaddywaddy, I felt for you when you said this: "Must nip off right now as dh (plod a policeman) is outside kicking a bag of puppies". It's terrible to have your reputation besmirched by onlookers through the actions of a tiny violent minority, right? But on the upside, now your DH has something in common with the protesters...

Someone was asking about economics. I suspect the fundamental driver behind all this is long-term macroeconomics. The government appears to have quietly accepted the argument that the future economic success of the UK depends on having a workforce that includes a large proportion (50%? 60? 70?) of degree-educated people. Presumably, this is on the grounds that this is where the cost-disadvantages of the UK will be kept at bay the longest -- no point trying to out-manufacture the Chinese, in this view.

The problem is, education to age 21 is expensive. When 10% of us went to university, general taxation was feasible. The government believes that when 50% do, the costs have to shift to the user. This keeps the taxation burden lower but obviously does nothing to reduce the total system costs, and of course it makes life tougher for the individual students concerned. What's more, because the fee is paid upfront by the government (as I understand it), there are significant transaction costs and upfront finance costs that the state incurs, so the net savings are reduced (not sure by how much, but I'm sure someone's worked through the numbers).

The other problem is, an education system in which the majority of people have a degree is obviously going to be providing very different kind of degrees to one in which only 10% of the population get one. A degree from a new university may be useful in a different way, and for a different person, to a degree from Oxbridge but it is obviously easy to simply dismiss the former as useless Mickey Mouse stuff, especially if you have the latter. And it fits a general meme about dumbing down and false intellectualism doctors talk the same way about nurses (but not to their faces), now that nursing is a degree-level profession.

[newwave]

dotnet :o

[dotnet]

Showaddywaddy of course you can post. Everyone can; they let me in!

[dotnet]

Nice, Newwave! This one isn't spot-on in quite the same way, but I like this one as well:

'It's the same the whole world over;
'It's the poor wot get the blame;
'It's the rich wot get the pleasure,
'Ain't it all a bleedin' shame!'

[newwave]

to paraphrase an old song

50 years at work and what do you get,
another day older and deeper in debt
Saying Jesus dont you call me cause I cant go
I owe my soul to the Banking Co.

[grannieonabike]

Another great post, Dotnet! It really doesn't make sense for young people to think living in debt is OK. How could it? The only people who benefit from that state of affairs are ... the bankers! It's almost like indentured labour, isn't it? First the bank owns your house, now the bank wants to own your labour. It all adds up, doesn't it?

[dotnet]

Thinking about something Moondog posted yesterday ...'your own tired view of society being crushed under the boot of a sinister elite'...
Well, it made me think about the social class element in all of this. Because yes, actually, I do think social class has a significant bearing on the disruptive times we are now going through.

If I were linked up to a lie detector and asked, Is David Cameron well-meaning but out of touch, or is he a nasty, evil piece of work who enjoys making people unhappy?' I'd have to say he's well meaning but entirely out of touch. I don't think the lie detector would show me up.

In my opinion, David Cameron simply has no idea how the other half live. Princess Diana was better informed!

I'd have thought it would have been obvious that increasing tuition fees threefold would be asking for trouble. Baroness Blackstone (I think that is her name) was on the radio the other day, saying that to the 'debt-averse', this idea is anathema, and would put them off going into higher education.

The great majority of people in this country, I think, ARE 'debt-averse'. If you take on a mortgage, you long for the day when it's paid off. It must be bad, bad, bad, surely, to inculcate 18-year olds with the notion that borrowing enormous amounts of money from an early age - even before you've learnt how to earn your own living - is quite normal.

To David Cameron, with his upper class confidence, it appears incomprehensible that people won't willingly put themselves in debt with no knowledge of when or if they will have to start paying it off. To him, the likely sums involved are relatively paltry. To us, they're not.

Nick Clegg also shows incomprehension about how people really live - arguably also owing to his class and background.

Gordon Brown, on the other hand, despite what people said about his difficult personality - absolutely did understand real life outside his own immediate circle. It's the 'son of the Manse' thing - he mixed with regular, everyday people at school and saw his father trying to help his Kirkcaldy parishioners with their problems. Gordon Brown would not have added a further load to the tuition fees Tony Blair (another privileged child) instigated.

On the matter of pressure against this iniquitous tuition fees thing, the latest I've heard - good news - is that 100 former LibDem candidates - ie candidates who DIDN'T get elected - have told LibDem MPs to vote against the uprating when crunch time comes.

[Kaloki]

Your last post did work dotnet, MN is weird at the moment isn't it?

[dotnet]

Showaddywaddy I keep wanting to leave the computer, but then someone posts something interesting/funny and I can't leave (but I'm switching off for at least a few hours after I've posted this one.)
Actually I did try and post an answer to Kaloki just now, but it disappeared - don't know why. I've discovered, by the way, that typing a pound sign makes a post disappear. Very strange.
I'd said to Kaloki that I really didn't think all police were b**ds, just that I don't really understand how, if you are a decent cop, you can go along with obeying orders which are stupid and vindictive.

Oh, I might as well say again what I'd said on the post I lost (about an alternative to kettling)-
I can only comment on what I saw on the 24th. The 'violence' was small potatoes really and the very few people who smashed things cculd easily have been arrested.
Given that thousands of police were deployed, I can't for the life of me see why the protest couldn't have been allowed to process along the road - the police could have lined the route. The mood would have been nicer - happier, and less resentful.

I went on an anti apartheid march once when I was at college and as far as I can remember, we were just able to drift away from Trafalgar Square, where we ended up, when we'd had enough.

As for Nov. 24th, we were a nice respectable bunch, nearly all of us. The ones who were a bit wild, were just going in for a bit of horseplay, they weren't dangerous lunatics, just kids misbehaving.

About the policing - I just have the feeling a decision had been made LONG in advance -'Right, the moment someone gets out a felt tip pen and writes on our van - we've got 'em. Close off all exits IMMEDIATELY and let's let those children and dangerous, dangerous students freeze their balls off for hours, that'll teach 'em.'

Just reread your post. I liked the thing about the bag of puppies. What an image!

[Kaloki]

Thankyou Kate.

I am actually neither a student or a parent, so totally unaffected by this. I want to support the students nonetheless.

[Kaloki]

I think you are right dotnet, given the last protest I can understand it though. They are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't really.

I guess they do it because, despite the stupid orders, more often than not they do get to genuinely help people. And they think it's worth it for that. Most of the police at protests/riots normally deal with other things anyway. I imagine they'd rather not be at the protests. One of my friends actually works for internal investigations, trying to stop dodgy coppers getting away with it.

[dotnet]

Oh Kaloki, I can only really comment about what I saw myself. I saw A FEW people damaging property. It was small potatoes really, and the kids in question could have been arrested.
If the protest had been allowed to march along the street it would have been perfectly OK. Given that there were THOUSANDS of police assigned to the demonstration, they could have lined the route.
It looked as if this bloody silly kettling business was decided in advance - as if the instruction was put out, 'Right, as soon as someone gets out a felt tip pen and writes on our van - we've got 'em. Trap the bloody lot the moment that happens.'
Some of the police barring the exits WERE pleasant int the way they talked to you; I talked to a couple of them; others were hard faced bastards, like the one in his thirties or early forties who manhandled me back in (well, it's always worth trying)- when I tried to leave.
Actually, talking to one of the younger coppers I heard a very young black girl saying something about the stupidity of the higher-ups who gave out the order to trap us all. The cop we were talking to, agreed when I not very diplomatically said his superiors were a bunch of wankers.
I genuinely don't mean all police are horrible people, just that I don't understand how decent people can stomach having to obey orders which are stupid and vindictive.
p.s. About that message to Kaloki re a protest on Tues - don't take my word for it -check with your nearest university if you're interested, I only know about my dd's one.

[kate1956]

www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=143181365734172#!/event.php?eid=143365209046082&index=1
this links to tuesday actions

www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=143181365734172#!/event.php?eid=172969552731286

this is the link to sunday 5th - expecting this to be built for properly after tuesday.


www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=143181365734172#!/pages/Parents-against-the-uni-fee-increases-and-removal-of-EMA/178728745470731
and this is the new facebook group for parents, relatives etc

[moondog]

No Nurse, because it is a puerile and hysterical one.
So I can't be arsed.

[Showaddywaddy]

I have 3 degrees. I paid for all of them myself. Am I allowed an opinion or to post on this thread? It appears to have quite a bearing on whether your opinions or educational background are the things addressed.

Will be back later for the consensus. Must nip off right now as dh (plod a policeman) is outside kicking a bag of puppies and the noise is ruining my enjoyment of my Sunday afternoon MNing.

[Kaloki]

dotnet I disagree with you about the police. I have some good friends in the police, one of whom is highly likely to be roped in to doing work at the riots. It's not an easy job, they want it to be peaceful as much as the protesters. There may be some who get off on the violence, same as within the protesters. And it's those who make it awful for everyone else. But for the most part they are just trying to make things safe, and there aren't too many alternatives to kettling really as far as I'm aware.

What would your technique be to deal with a situation which has quite a large potential to become violent? (Which all protests do unfortunately, it doesn't take too many people to cause total chaos)

[dotnet]

NurseSunshine - absolutely (about kettling.) I don't actually know how nice people can stay in the police - not if they know that when working at demonstrations, they are expected and encouraged to treat good and decent people - and for God's sake, schoolchildren now - like vermin.
I'd fancy the pay, but I think I'd not stay long if I got as far as putting on the uniform.

[Kaloki]

Dammit, got to sort out finding housing on Tues. Will keep my eyes open for the Dec one then.