If your 17 year old wanted to take a day off school to attend the student funding march on Wed would you condone it

[mrswoodentop]

What it says really,ds1 ,17 ,very politically aware wants to attend.Its a school day,independent school so I need to write to say we are authorising him to have a day off.

Dh violently against ,very angry with me for even thinking about it ,treats ds like a naughty little boy.I am more ambivelent,I am proud of him for feeling strongly (dh thinks that because he wouldn't go on his own that he just wants a day off school with his friends),I think that this issue is going to have a profound effect on his life and in a way I am quite proud of him for wanting to have a voice, also proud because he has thought carefully about the issues and wants to hear both sides and yes he wants to experience something big ,something new,to be there if you like.But and and its a big but he has to have day off school,he's not a definate oxbridge candidate ,his grades aren't perfect he can ill afford to miss a lot of school,but one day? I don't know,dh has said no and he's agreed so I suppose its over but perhaps we are doing him a diservice (sorry not sure of spelling)

Ok, the point I was making was fairly obviously not that people with practical careers can't have academic interests. If you met my DH you'd know that was the case. And I'm certainly not having a go at people who do more practically minded jobs (although given the reading material on show in our local garage I reckon I'm on safe ground with the Donne questions!).

Instead the point I was making was that people have different skills and strengths, and that making 'Degree' a catch-all standard is no more appropriate than saying we all have to have BTECs, even if we want to be a philosopher. Some of us are academic, some of us are practically minded, some of us are good with people skills, some of us are good with logistics and organisation.

Assuming that it is completely unaffordable for EVERYONE to get a degree with state assistance, surely it makes much more sense to focus that funding so "the working class youngsters who want to study philosophy, or Eng Lit, or Mandarin" actually have a hope in hell of being able to afford it? And the working class kid (or any other bloody class) who hates essay writing and exams, and feels under intolerable pressure to study for A-levels and go to university for an 'academic' further education when they'd much rather be learning how to tend livestock or run a rock climbing centre or get a foot in the door of the fashion industry, or whatever, DOESN'T have to saddle themselves with outrageous debt by the age of 20 because there is an equally well respected alternative.

I should add, I dont think the Government has really thought this through...

If our kids cant afford to go to uni, cant get a job and cant claim benefits what on earth will they do???

Its all very well saying they can do an apprenticeship but just how many places are there going to be? I know 2 local big companies where places on the apprenticeship scheme are very competitive already.

Going to university shouldnt be just for the rich, doesnt everyone have the right to an education? or did we just go back in time a couple of decades?

I would rather ds did a degree that mattered. When I went to uni a tiny percentage of school leavers went. The others weren't roaming the streets unemployed or claiming benefits. They were employed. Some of them did far better than those of us that went to uni.

but times have changed !

Not sure they have. When my db graduated he had to write 600 letters/applications before he got his first job. I wonder how many graduates today make that amount of effort?

Hi theperfecthousewife and also alicatte - Well, I wonder if there is somewhere we can go from here? I'd just LURVE to see a massive demonstration by parents and like minded middle agers, it would really shock Cameron, Clegg et al I think, if the demo was big enough. Wednesday is Prime Minister's Questions day, when the House of Commons is fullest.
And wouldn't it be nice to back up our kids?

This whole thing is not only about fees, and cutting down the number of students going to Uni. It is about the privatisation of academia, the conversion (even more than now) of students into consumers and teachers into providers of services for satisfied customers.

And this impacts mainly humanities and arts... Philosophy run by the happy customer. The market (the students able to pay the increasing fees) will decide how much a degree's course. I read recently an article by Stefan Collini on this. One of his many good arguments is pointing out to a very plausible scenario:

'...while it may be true that the present system embodies an unnecessary pretence that all institutions called universities perform the same set of functions, it is not good deluding ourselves that simply leaving 18-year-old applicants to cash in their vouchers at a university of their choice will lead to a more intelligently conceived provision of diverse, high-quality institutions. It may just lead to a few private jets and a lot of Ryanairs'

Hello again, Riven! Yes I agree about that. Had a rotten night thinking about the demo and the students. Watching the clip on TV -it sent my adrenalin pumping and my eyes were glued to the set - I was horrified and thrilled in equal measure.
Maybe, just maybe, this will have given David Cameron pause to think again. He described the demo as 'very serious', and although I've never voted Tory I think it's possible he may be decent at heart - maybe he really hadn't a clue how older children, students and parents were feeling.
Not so some of the LibDem MPs. I heard Norman Lamb, who is a Norfolk MP, on the radio this morning, saying he regretted ever having signed the LibDem undertaking not to increase tuition fees.
Hypocrite, turncoat. Beneath contempt.

Riven , that's so true and such a ridiculous change. I'm not sure the increased access to degrees has been a good thing.

I'd disagree about making midwifery not a degree career. I'm glad I've got my degree, it taught me how to pull apart research to ensure that its valid rather than just believing the conclusion. It taught me to reflect better so that my practice improves. Loads of other stuff as well.

I would be proud of him! it's so important for teens to express the concerns on issues that directly effect them! it all part of our wonderful democracy isn't it?

I don't see the point of degrees for what are essentially vocational jobs. What do they add and what makes them better than on the job training?

Riven, I did a degree then had children and stayed at home. I retrained as a m/w so not sure how making it a degree closes it to people like me.

The responsibility of a midwife is so great I think its good that the standards of the course has been raised.

Ah, guess I was lucky then as I did the advanced diploma which meant I got a 6k a year bursary and then work paid for me to do the dissertation afterwards to turn it into a degree.

I do still think it should be a degree subject but one that should be funded by non-means tested bursary like the diploma was. I never knew it used to be a 2 year course, always thought it was 3 years. I have definetly seen less older women with a partner training now. Its all either teenagers or single mums who I guess get enough benefits so that they can do it. Its a shame to lose out on the women who have a working partner who would get no help.

I would be proud if my boys felt so strongly about the unfairness of a situation they wanted to do something about it. My eldest is only 10 but already he 'does something' when he sees unfairness, whether it's playground bullying or earthquakes in Haiti.

I recognise that, unfortunately, university funding needs to be radically reorganised and that means students taking on more of the cost themselves. But a system which means that only the children of the rich think they can afford a degree is just plain wrong. I dread my kids going to Uni - although I hope they'll feel they can. We won't be able to pay for it and I hate the thought of them being saddled with so much debt at 21, on top of the debt they'll have to accumulate through mortgages and so on.

I agree with FN - if uni becomes the only post-18 route to learning and a good job, then this will be an increasing problem.

Sorry, not read whole thread.

I'd be v happy if any of my kids went on a march like this - and v proud.

I might make them wear protective clothing/strong hat after what we saw yesterday, but I'd still want them to go.

Much too young now though. Though DD (still at primary school) said she wanted to go.

I am another who thinks thet increasing access to degrees has not been a good thing,

It has just made jobs which used to be open to school leavers now only open to graduates.

When I did my degree in the 80s working class kids who were bright enough to benefit from it were able to get a degree without worrying about the financial consequences.

Those who were not university calibre got onto work based training schemes and worked their way up that way.

These training schemes are now only open to graduates. So these students are still ending up with the same jobs but are saddled with student debt as well.

A fully funded scheme for all young people to study for degrees will never be financially viable. So if we insist on offering the same number of university places then they will have to be paid for by the students. So now only the rich will be able to get a degree.

Theperfecthousewife - yes, times have changed but not for the better.

Now we are faced with making higher education only available to those who can pay for it. How is that an improvement on the situation in the 80s?

What we really need is a reduction in univerity places and an increase in places in work based training and vocational courses so that there are realistic options available for all.

I really hope that David Cameron does have a heart and can see the strength of feeling for what it is, a huge worry to come for most of our children, and not just a load of thugs having a good day out. We have had tears in our house since they won the election over the cuts to education funding. The public cannot just sit back and let them get away with doing what they want.

It's not just an annoyance that they are cutting our benefits by few quid a week.

abouteve - but how is it going to be funded?

The current number of university places cannot be publicly funded, there are just too many for that.

The only way to offer funded university places is to reverse the massive increase in places and change people's expectations on university places.

It now seems to be accepted that every worthwhile career should be based on a degree. Why is this? We had excellent nurses, midwives, physiotherapists etc in the past without having to label them as graduates. What has changed?

Unfortunately, in an attempt to make everyone equal (ie have widespread access to a university education) we will end up right back where we started a century ago with university education only available to those with lots of money.

I don't call that progress.

I don't know, to reduce the number of courses would close down universities and result in job losses etc. Maybe they should commit money to our HE system, and only increase the fees to an affordable amount and keep a decent bursary system.