The first time I am furious with the new government

[longfingernails]

They are selling us out to the EU, just like every government before them.

The EU seems to be getting a big budget increase.

At the same time, if France and Germany are getting a new treaty to govern Eurozone fiscal irresponsibility, we should be doing everything we can to use the leverage to bring back powers and competences to Britain, and to derail the Brussels gravy train. Yet Cameron seems to have capitulated already, without even a word of resistance!

We need huge cutbacks in the EU, not increases. I would go for at least 95% cuts in the EU budget.

I am absolutely livid.

Time to leave this monstrosity, I think.

To think I was once so naive that I thought "in the EU, not run by the EU" was genuinely possibile!

Eery single EU country will negotiate trade and visa terms with us - we are still too important a market for them not to.

Isn't that 'anti-Europe' thing a bit last century? I don't pretend to understand everything that goes on there but I do know that - as an expansionist nation - it is in our interests to keep pushing for as big and broad an EU as possible, pulling in Turkey and so forth, rather than let France Germany and a few other federalist/centrists carve everything up between themselves.

EU has to get a bit tougher on the financial stability of member states. The Eurozone has a few problems to contend with and none of the member states are going to be rushing to pay more than necessary. But, on the general point, I'd rather we were inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent getting pissed on....

I agree - reading the stuff in The Times today about the profligacy of the EU made my blood boil! A pay increase of 3.7% was agreed several years ago; the EU halved that to 1.85%, but workers are taking legal action for the remainder. 3.8%! I am paid on public sector (NJC) payscales and I received 1% last year and bugger all this year... which is fine, if we're all in this together as DC is so fond of saying. All this on top of a proposed INCREASE in the EU entertaining budget! Grr!

David Cameron needs to channel some of that essence of Mrs T to ensure that our rebate remains, and to instigate a reduction equivalent to that suffered by out public services in our EU contribution.

I agree with Chil1234. We have too much to lose if we leave the EU - and so much to gain by staying in and being as much involved as possible.
We are not that important or vital a market anymore - we have carry much greater weight and influence by being in the EU.

Not sure he has capitulated yet - the summit hasn't even started.

However, I totally agree that the budget should be frozen. The EU is a house of cards - it will collapse one day and we are better off not being any more ensnared in it than we already are.

He has capitulated.

He has such a wonderful chance to renegotiate and bring back powers. The French and Germans are desperate for a new Treaty. There are all sorts of things Britain wants.

A restoration of the rebate. The return of regulation of financial bodies to the UK. Throwing Herman van Rompuy and Baroness Ashton onto the scrapheap. Reform of the CAP. A sane fisheries policy. Scrapping the Working Time Directive. Neutering the European Court of Human Rights. The list goes on and on.

Cameron isn't even asking for any of them.

I am so disappointed in him, and in William Hague.

Didn't you see Nick Robinson on the BBC last night? He thinks the PM will let the Eurozone fiscal thing go through as we are not in the Eurozone; however he will fight against the budget increase and for the rebate to remain and that is long haul.

I don't think the EU actually achieves anything, it's just a huge talking shop which props up jobs for the boys a la Cathy Ashton and Van Rompuy. It is wasteful and profligate, the parties they hold for staff at Christmas are an example with free very good quality food and champagne (not apocryphal by the way), dinner not necessary after one of those parties.

The fact we are not in the Eurozone is not the point.

The point is that Lisbon was an outrageous assault on our sovereignty. He has an opportunity to undo at least some of that damage, but just isn't taking it!

I don't understand why.

I applaud Cameron's domestic agenda wholeheartedly, but the foreign policy seems to be just saying "Oui, oui, oui".

Bring back Maggie, I say.

Cameron doesn't want to make changes to the Lisbon treaty because this isn't just about Tory policy, it is about Lib-dem policy and they are as pro-Europe as the Torys are anti. He seems to want to leave the French and the Germans to strengthen the Eurozone without touching the treaty. If he challenges the treaty it could spark the need for a referendum where the outcome would be completely up in the air and could, concievably bring down his government if the Tory's and the Lib Dems fell out too badly.

The price you pay for not winning the election outright and having to form a coalition.

I would love to believe it is only because of the Lib Dems, but I can't really say that with conviction any more.

Sarkozy told the eurocrats to bog off over the Roma gypsy deportations. That was for cheap populism, but he did it nonetheless.

Cameron should tell the eurocrats to bog off over matters of important policy. Why does Britain always give in, whilst France and Germany stand up for themselves?

What Chil said. Besides, I like the ability to travel, work and live in Europe as I please :o.

@longfingernails ... What matters of important policy have eurocrats imposed on us lately that you particularly object to?

Regulating financial services is the main one. London is the only global financial centre in Europe - and we should have control of financial regulation. Hedge funds had almost nothing to do with the credit crunch, and yet Barnier seems to want to punish them.

Of course, it depends on what you mean by "lately". I object to all sorts of Labour giveaways - the Social Chapter as a whole is awful, with the Working Time Directive particularly egregious.

The European Convention on Human Rights is another abomination, but that can't really be rescinded with the Lib Dems in power.

I am just fed up of the whole thing.

Whilst we need access to European markets, they need access to us too. No European country could afford not to sign a free trade agreement with a UK which was out of the EU.

Not to mention, of course, the undemocratic EU President, and the dozens of vetos we lost under the Lisbon Treaty! We should get those back too.

Even the tory supporters hate this government.

It's such a joke. I've never seen such an unpopular government at this stage of office.

Has it any precedent?

@longfingernails... London is not the only financial sector in Europe and if you're saying it was 'Europe' that deregulated our banks with no imput from Westminster I think you've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere.

The European-driven changes to working conditions have been good news for a lot of British workers and a very civilising influence.

The Human Rights convention leads to some anomalies in practice but in essence protects us all equally

And we can't really carp about an undemocratic President whilst we happily retain the House of Lords, a monarchy, first past the post and other less than democratic traditions.

It's a common complaint from anti European types that we are bossed around by Brussels on 'important policies' and they're always claiming we have lost our sovereignty. But pin them down on what exactly has happened for the worst and they struggle to come up with examples.

The natural upshot of a coalition seeking to govern in the middle ground is that those on the left of the Lib-Dems and those on the far right of the Conservatives will think the centre has 'sold out'. I really wouldn't take longfingernails' opinions as being typical of the average centre right Tory voter... typical of the far right, antiquated John Redwood type, possibly

I heard David Cameron at PMQs talking about it and quite frankly it is obvious we are not going to get anything out of this negotiation and just end up meekly handing over the money.

I am sick of it.

Chil1234 No, I am talking of very recent transfers of powers. The EU took control of various aspects of financial regulation after the coalition came to power.

The point isn't really about the regulations themselves (though the eurocrats do seem to want to destroy London as a global financial centre). It is about sovereignty. Why should this be a matter for Brussels, rather than for Westminster?

Chil1234 In what way am I "far right"?

I am to the left of current Tory policy on many things. For example, on immigration. I agree more with the Ken Clarke view on justice than the Michael Howard view. I genuinely want an elected House of Lords. I don't particularly think I am that far to the right...

I suspect more Tory voters (and Labour voters, for that matter) have my opinion about the EU than yours .

Frrrrightattendant I don't hate the government as a whole.

I am just disappointed. I thought we might finally get a PM who put Britain's interests before those of our "partners" for a change. We haven't had one since Thatcher.

eh? we are negative contributors to the EU - ie. we get more than we give

Lauriefairycake LOL.

Lonfingernails. It is in the Lisbon Treaty that we HAVE to agree budget increases or get heavy fines for not doing so.That is why Cameron has no choice but to agree the increase The EU has and never will be demoncratic, as knowbody who resides in the dreamworld of Brussells has ever been elected, apart from the MEP's who mostt have ever heard of, do you know who your MEP is?

Marth Anderson who was dealing with accounts for the EU (Brussells) exposed the waste and fraud and was duly dispatched from her job.

That is why UKIP polled so many votes at the last election (some 900.000) because many people want out of the EU completely. Many as I do think we are wasting the 45 million we give them every day. We give billions to the EU and we don't know what it is spent on.
The only way to stop this waste is to get out of the EU, which is possible but we are again fined for leaving, although the fine to my knowledge is spread out over two years.

lauriefairycake where did you get your figures from? WE are not negative contributors to the EU we give Billions and get a few billion back, so how do you come up with your figure? LOL also. I shall get offical figures and return!