London firefighters to strike on Bonfire Night

[longfingernails]

What are they thinking?

No, I don't support strikes for wages and conditions. I support strikes for genuine safety reasons, and no other.

If you don't like your wages and conditions, quit. If you can't quit because no-one else will employ you, then do everything you can to get new skills first. If times are hard, then don't go making outrageous demands. If times are good, then you should be able to move jobs with some effort.

apparently they've basically been told they'll be sacked if they don't agree to the new shift changes.

I support most strikes. As soon as one goes on strike you lose financially. The recovery in an increase in wage, if that is the reason doesn't add up. Most strikes are about wrestling back a modicum of control over conditions, which are often H&S related in any case.

have been on strike a few times and likely will again against the 'cuts' which will have a dreadful impact on my work environment.

Not quite true. They've been told they will be re-employed under the new terms. That might require, for legal reasons, sacking them and then re-hiring them immediately under the new terms, but the re-hiring bit is important.

No-one will lose their job over this.

actually no I think they dismissed them all in August with the intention of re-employing them on the new contracts.

I'm kind of on the fence with strikes over pay and conditions, but I'm not sure I'd be happy being sacked and told the only way I will have a job is to sign up to the new contract with no discussion at all before hand about it.

usually when you start a job you have an idea of what hours you'll be expected to work and sign a contract detailing them, if you don't like the contracted hours - you don't sign it.

Though I'm struggling to understand how changing the shifts to 12hr shifts is going to free up more time during the day for whatever it is they want done during the day instead

What frustrates me is when the firefighters strike other services have to pick up the tab. Last time they went on strike I was working as a support worker we had to have 2 staff doing waking nights to make sure our clients were safe, we wouldn't normally have had a waking night at all.
We'd only just got enough staff to cover the rota and by the end of the 3 weeks we were knackered.

This isn't without discussion. There have been months (probably years) of discussion.

No-one will lose their job. No-one will lose salary. No-one will lose breaks.

The change involved is 3 hours more on one shift, and 3 hours less on another.

I just don't understand why some of the more militant unions oppose every single management change, instead of being constructive.

Although I don't support striking for pay, it at least has a fairly understandable logic to it. Where is the logic in this strike?

The 12 hour shift patterns means there is more time for prevention work, apparently.

As i understand it Longfingernails the change in shift is opposed by the men themselves

its easier to be more alert during the day
night work is different i think and it upsets your body system
we need them to be alert

why cant they organise their shifts, cover as they see fit

pick your fights, no?

I don't think unions of any type oppose every maangement change. We don't hear of the millions of 'changes' that go by. We just hear of the controversial ones.

for men read firefighters

feck Pan is that you?
lemon fork biscuits Pan?

feck yes! and who the feck are you?

LFN

You do realise that the "workers" have had to fight for nearly every right they have including the right to form a Union, "management" have opposed nearly everything of benefit to the "workers".

The Tories opposed the minimum wage even though it is set at a near poverty level.

As for striking to protect wages do you think arbitary cuts are ok then ?

Well yes - the letters were sent out in August so it has been months........

Before that there had been negotiations, and then they decided to send out the sacking letter regardless of the talks that had been on going.

South Yorkshire firemen had been in talks over the same planned changes and managed to meet a compromise of 11 and 13hr shifts.

Sounds to me rather like the management in London said "sod this - can't be arsed listening to what our employers we'll do what we want"

suzycreamwaybackcheese

As far as I understand the reasons for striking, I support it as I question how much "daytime community fire prevention work" really needs to be done by firefighters instead of other fire service personnel.

Having said that, if the promise to attend "major" incidents is true, it is next to useless as fire is obviously very unpredictable.
Only recently over the road there was an incident which was only reported as "bonfire out of control" but which very soon in danger of taking out a terrace and the people in it.
No-one knows far the emergency will have escalated between first verbal report and arrival on the scene.

how does that work - more time for prevention work if they're working the same hours - I don't get that.

Shift patterns co-ordinated by firefighters without any management input would be a disaster. Of course they should have a say in shift patterns, but the final decisions must be taken by managers, who are then held accountable for those decisions.

Of course management should be minimal and as free of bureaucracy as possible.

Prevention work usually has to be done during the day.

i understood it to be a real top down decision not supported on many levels

yes but this isn't management input this is management dictatorship as they've decided "sod it we'll do what WE want, sack 'em all and only rehire them if they stick to what we (who don't actually go out and fight any fires, so have no idea what it's like actualy working on the ground) want".

oh suzy! I remember! Have been away for a bit, about a year, til the last couple of months. Biscuits still good? Easy. Quick. Tasty. Like some people I know!

yes but how is more prevention work going to be done during the day with the proposed changes?

I mean - I presume on the current system that there's people working 24 hours a day, so they can still do fire prevention during the day surely?