There is no God cont...

@vincitveritas the thing is, they aren’t “missing books of the bible” they are based in a different cosmology from that that was being used by the mainstream Christian church by the time the New Testament was compiled. But they are alternative religious texts of people who believed in Jesus (albeit differently from mainstream Christianity).

The dating of the texts of the Nag Hammadi texts is very difficult and varied. Iraneaus writing in the early to mid 2nd century was already writing about a number of texts contrary to the synoptic gospels having wide spread readership in what is now France (for comparison the Gospel of John is dated around 90 AD, the synoptic gospels from around 60AD). It’s perfectly conceivable that many “Gnostic”texts were written around the same time. Of course these are the discovered and surviving texts, many from the Discovery in Nag Hammadi were burned unfortunately.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

is the Bible clear to read? It’s just as easy to read as allegory. Did Jesus really turn water into wine at a wedding? This is so full of alchemical symbolism it’s difficult to read in any other way. I would argue you get so much more from the Bible not reading it in a literal way. For me the value of Jesus lies more in his life than in his death.

I know that for the majority of mainstream Christian’s this is true but I’m not a mainstream Christian and probably not a Christian in most senses.

For me his death as a single point of enlightenment, inevitable iver which he had no control. His life was a guide on living and how to get to enlightenment.

his resurrection, whilst important, was again an inevitable result of his death, again it was his life that enabled him and us to get there.

Sorry - here you go

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4710950-there-is-no-god?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Wow that sounds like an interesting dream, what do you think the jewels meant?

I agree that the death can’t be discounted but it it is so much the focus of mainstream Christianity that the rest of it seems rather overshadowed a consequently out of balance.

And this is why the bible, long with every other book is open to interpretation. You can apply a framework to it and this corrals the interpretation somewhat. But it’s possible to interpret the Bible in so many different ways. Who decides what right or wrong? Unless there’s no right or wrong

Unless you integrate the light rather than blocking it. That way you can illuminate everything rather than leaving parts in darkness. The higher should shine it’s brightness on the lower in order to lift it up.

as above so below

And I think gnosis should come from individual revelation. However the history of the establish church has very much been against this. Of course there have always been individuals who went against the grain, either through mystical revelation or intellectual revelation, their relationship with the stake and fire have been variable.

the first real attack on this we have is probably Irenaus in the late 2nd century with his work Against Heresies"On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis" this would indicate an orthodox view to have heresies. The first council of nicea was convened by Constantine to address a heresy and there was a codification of what Christianity is. It’s clear that these early efforts on creating a single view were more than linked to political control and it’s this connection between religion and control which has been a defining feature of Christianity ever since with its relentless persecution of heresies. Individual thought has been controlled and quashed at various points and with various degrees of enthusiasm.

The fact innocent III banned the “occult” reading of the bible (ie reading of the bible in private small groups) in his early reign should leave us with little surprise he called the Albegensian crusades. Self interpretation and different Christian cosmologies were dangerous beliefs. Look at Bruno, burned at the stake for his beliefs we now know to be true.

it then really wasn’t until Luther we saw the successful widespread change in views about limited individual interpretation, esp with the printinting of the bible in local languages - how are you supposed to have individual revelation without access to the source zThis then led to more widespread alternative views most notably the springing up of the various Christian denominations and I would argue the embracing of the Rosicrucian manifestos by the European intellectuals showed a thirst for gnosis.

I would argue Jesus was very much about individual revelation, this is why he spoke in allegory a lot of the time, to get people to think. He wasn’t about rules, in fact he only really had one, be excellent to each other. I suspect he’d have more sympathy with the Life of Brian than the history of mainstream Christian views.

Im with Blake the New Jerusalem (despite what many rugby spectators or jingoists may think) is about finding the new kingdom within, within our imagination.

Absolutely, many cultures have a tradition of sharing dreams etc. it’s a pity we’ve moved away from being able to freely discuss our own thoughts and interpretations to a dogmatic this means this, right and wrong, good and bad, black and white

Yes we are all human, have flaws etc, the trouble is religions are created, run by and exploited by those humans with the self same flaws. There’s no reason to think their interpretation is definitive or better than mine. Religion has been shaped largely by interior motives. They carry truth but sometimes stripping back the layers to find it is nearly impossible.

it’s probably why I prefer to work in a framework and work to fill in details myself as to interpretation etc but having people to voice ideas and experiences with and explore concepts with. People who will offer their input but at the end of the day respect my experience is my own. That’s why I like the western esoteric community so much.

but you’re right it’s horses for courses. Some people feel more comfortable with clearly set boundaries ultimately what’s important is that each person finds the level and interpretation of truth that’s right for them