Do you believe in God?

[VirtualPA]

I am interested to know what the majority of people belive.

I personally believe in a Christian God, Heaven and hell etc.

I raised a strict an athiest

well this is explicitly a debate on religion, it's not hard to identify/avoid.

But you're the one taking the religion on to the other threads though surely? If what I say in AIBU for example to coloured for you by your knowledge of my religious faith.

But if you're not keen on politics or religion, you do need to start hiding topics...

Hmm, well I have noticed that every now and again some of the most headbangly superstitious posters on here show up on a thread on some non-superstition-related subject and either speak excellent good sense or are very funny. But then that's the joy of MN, you can be disagreeing massively with someone one minute and the next, they are riding to your rescue on a thread where you're getting a thorough but undeserved kicking.

But something I find necessary to at least wonder when someone says 'I'm a Christian' is, well, what sort of Christian? Because being a Christian might mean that you are a well-meaning left-of-centre type who just happens to believe in one particular brand of mythology - or it could mean you are a homophobic, racist, woman-hating arsehole. Both these mindsets can be found in people who are (loudly) self-proclaimed Christians, after all.

Now that we agree on SGB.

And not all Christians would view other Christians as being, well, Christian either.

There are some I will happily disown for a start...

SGB

Well said - I have known 'devout' Christians who have refused to share a table with homosexuals/Muslims/anyone who didn't share ther beliefs.

I also have been at the receiving end of religions that cannot accept my way of life - divorced/meat-eater/agnostic etc etc

Fundamentalism in any form is worrying and I will always kick against it. Intellect (or lack of it - that is my concern) always gets in the way.

You could say the same about being a member of a political party, SGB, some are assholes, some are nice.

SGB - You are right to raise this issue as hypocrisy is rife throughout our society and this includes the Chirstian faith and the church. While Scripture is clear about some 'hot potato'-type issues it is less clear on others and one of the biggest challenges for Christians is learning, seeking wisdom and discerning what Jesus meant when he called us to 'love our neighbour'.

My feeling is that my faith is something that I needn't shout loudly and boisterously about, but demonstrate to others by all my actions (hopefully mostly loving and caring) my (and God's) love for them. Sometimes I screw up - but I take this to God and (if I can) to the person I may have hurt and ask them to forgive me. Sometimes in this process I get hurt, but I try to forgive other people and not bear a grudge. My thoughts, beliefs, principles and moral code for life (based on the teachings of Jesus and other wisdom/guidance from the Bible) are my own and will not be forced upon other people. Who am I to judge? Jesus was emphatic in his teaching about prejudice and imposing this on others:

"It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbour's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this I-know-better-than-you mentality again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your own part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbour.'(Luke 6:42 - The Message)

There is sometimes a time to step up and defend our faith, morality or people less able to do so for themselves, but to my mind any claiming 'Christian' who is bigoted to a point of being unable to love their neighbour is missing Jesus' point somehow...

I love Jesus and try to live my life to honour him in every part - not to be 'holier than thou' but actually because I recognise that I am anything but 'holier than thou'.

SomeGuy: Know any nice BNP members, do you?

In answer to the thread title: Yes. And I disagree that it gives comfort/ solace. I've been through as much crap as the next person and I've never felt comforted by my faith: I don't use it as a way of finding easy answers to tough questions. But it did help me keep going in a ' Alllllllright, I won't give up today' sort of way. Which was not in the slightest bit comforting - giving up on life would have been more 'comfortable' than persisting. But persisting with life made me far stronger in the long run.

Madonna - I'm sure some Christians would see me as not being a 'real' Christian because I do yoga/ have rather nice gay friends/ swear from time to time/ occasionally drink too much/ don't make quiche.

Will there be quiche in heaven? Or would that make it hell?

Someguy

Religion or politics? Different or the same?

I think they should be separate.

Some celibate guy sitting in an ivory tower has no right to tell men/women how many children to have. What the hell would he know about pregnancy and the sheer bloody awfulness about multiple births and the repercussions attached to it?

Every sperm is sacred? If the world were catholic we would all be starving to death.

Thank God that the youth of Italy has realised the truth - they have the lowest birth rate in Europe.

Jesus for Prime Minister...... would be radical!

"backtotalk - you are getting yourself tied up in knots"

Not at all -- ask any theologist or logician.

"I'm fed up with the hectoring, pugilistic tone."

At last you seem to be learning an important lesson It is not pleasant to be patronised, I think we agree on this? It is not nice at all to be talked to and about with arrogance, and as if one is a brainless idiot? We don't really like it, do we?

Shall we try remember this in future in this kind of debate? Some people never learn this kind of thing until it happens to them and they are forced to complain about it. I think you're one of them. Now, having de-activated my brain to show you these very simple proofs, which despite their beauty and simplicity you still don't understand, I will try once more and then move on.

You said it is impossible to prove that God does not exist. I have proved to you that this is not so. You have to accept this because you accept the premise that a logical impossibility cannot exist.

Once again your failure to understand this has led to your use of abusive language, even though you don't enjoy having such tones used against you. You do rather want it all one way. I really don't like that. Unfortunately the abuse and offensive tones on these threads usually are only one-sided, because the Christians here are so nice. But I'm not a very good Christian and fully expect to be spit-barbecued come the four Horsemen. So I'm quite happy to show you what it's like.

Basically, you don't get it. Someone earlier said of SGB: "Of course you have a valid point: you just don't have the intellect to validate it." I'd like to steal that and pass it in your direction.

Onagar, yes: I'm in an odd position and over the years have struggled very much. My point is really to explain why faith is of such importance: you just wouldn't need it if you could prove that God existed. Historical accuracy, plausibility, carbon dating the Dead Sea Scrolls, whatever, all seem like such an irrelevance because one's supposed to simply believe, and believe without proof.

So for me, the fact that you have to believe in something not only highly unlikely, but completely impossible, is central. The fact that it is impossible is an integral part of faith (er for me).

I can see that this is where the head-shaking starts: because it's like a decision. You can't argue someone into being a Christian, and you can't argue them out of it. It doesn't mean a mathematician can't be a Christian. Reading Einstein's thoughts on faith is very thought provoking.

I'm slightly in awe of those with profound faith and the discipline to live by that faith because it is so hard, and I'd put money on most Christians being assailed by doubt at some point.

No. Same as I don't believe in gnomes, trolls or fairies.

Uh, I think I arrived rather late in this thread.

I dont believe in an interventionalist God (so arguably then I dont believe in God).

However, I am a big believer in freedom of religious expression and I dont think it "causes" conflicts. If you look at the real causes of most wars they are normally really over resources (usually land, oil, minerals)or(real or perceived)economic disparity. These issues have been around since time immemorial and are not going to go away. In fact, they are likely to intensify as the planet becomes more overpopulated.

People have very "tribal" tendencies. If you look at the worst examples of human behaviour over time, they do tend to have an "us vs them" feature and may appear religious on the face of it, but if you dig into the root cause they're not. They are more "territorial" than philosophical.

Not really.
I have come accross phenomenons in my life that can't really be explained logically and rationally. For example, heat emanating from a guy's hand: he was a lowly skivvy in a pizza shop I used to work at, and he healed my back with the heat from his hand!! I'm still trying to get my head around it, and I don't tell anyone IRL because they'll think I'm a weirdo. The guy himself was a bit confused by his 'gift' and didn't really know what to do with it. He didn't charge anyone, he just 'healed' his mates and co-workers like myself, in the staff office when we were on breaks. NOthing pretentious about it at all Lots had aching shoulders from tossing the pizza dough...
I often think the human impulse to create seems to come from 'somewhere else' too. Some art/literature is truly breathtaking.
I think newborns look like they've arrived 'from somewhere' too.

But I don't believe there's an all-knowing entity up there. I think that just stems from human beings' desire to attribute their life with meaning. It's scary to think life and death is random. But I must be a nihilist because I think it's random. I just have to think of incidences like the Hiroshiman bomb or the Rwandam genocide, or babies born with horrendous birth defects, to know that there's no masterplan. It's just random.
I really don't like religious ideas such as divine retribution. Or the rampant misogyny in many religious texts

Hiroshima bomb and Rwandan genocide

SpeedyGonzalez Comfort has fortis = strength as its root meaning. So you may not have been woolly solaced by your faith, but strengthened for the journey that God asks you to take,
To me it is at the root of the Christian message, that however rubbish life gets (crucifixion and all that) there still is hope of better things to come. The worse it is now, the better it will get later.
To me that is huge "comfort"

"Of course you have a valid point: you just don't have the intellect to validate it"

Wow, that has to rank as one of the lowest, below the belt personal attacks I've heard on MN...

What happened to 'turn the other cheek'?

Why do you need SGB to validate your beliefs?

Isn't that the type of comment that would come from someone who is unsure of the validity of their beliefs?

I used to teach a muslim guy, a Saudi. WHat an IDIOT he was (disclaimer to all muslims: I know this idiot I'm about to mention doesn't represent your religion).
Anyway, I used to help him with his masters and one of the things I had to do was read through his books before he did just in case there might be something in there that was against Islam. And if there was, I was to pre-warn him so that he didn't have to read it himself
THe implication of this, in my eyes, was that if reading something that contradicted his beliefs would cause them to come crashing down around his ears, then those beliefs must be based on a very weak faith. If you are sure of the integrity of your beliefs you don't have to be offended by others' criticism of them.

(of course, I secretly think he was brainwashed and hadn't actually thought through any of his beliefs, but that guy was in a league of his own )

OK, can I ask a question to believers of Christianity.
If you were born in a Christian (or muslim, or whatever) country, or to Christian parents, you are more likely to become Christian than a child born in an Amazonian rainforest who believest that spirits are in the rocks because Christianity hasn't reached there, or a child born in a mostly secular country like BRitain.

So, why do some people get that 'boost' and others don't. I mean becoming a Christian has a lot to do with the way you were raised. Why do some people get an advantage over others by virtue of the luck of the draw? Or do Christians believe that they were born into a Christian environment because they were born more special?
[I'm not talking about random converts here, I'm talking about entire families, communities and countries who follow the same belief system)

It's not a logical impossibility that God exists. Science hasn't disproved God. If God created science then God can choose only to reveal certain things to us, and there might well be dimensions and possibilities that we haven't found yet. It is not just possible that there are many things human beings do not yet understand, it's a certainty.

"You have to accept this because you accept the premise that a logical impossibility cannot exist."

Sakura, you're right and I believe God takes everyone's circumstances into account

Sakura: (from a non-Christian)

If you are a person of faith, then the variety you have is strongly predicted by the culture you were born into. Despite the tabloid headlines, there is very little movement between faith groups. i.e. there are relatively few Christians who convert to Islam and even fewer who convert to Buddhism. Geven that, relatively speaking there is little difference between the Abrahamic faiths, then conversion between Judaism/Islam/Christianity is not so much a matter of changing faith than changing your worship patterns. Historically christianity's success in mass conversions has little to do with religious belief and more to do with a pragmatic approach on the part of the converts. The Western invaders came in with massive resources. you could have access to these resources if you professed a belief in the Westerner's god. Simple really. You can this still happening in (prdominantly American) Christian missions in Africa. Resources are given out as long as sexual health information excludes abortions and condoms.

On another note, separated twin studies have demonstrated a gene for "religiosity" i.e. the tendency to be religious appears to be a genetic one. It's just the flavour of the religion that differs, predicted by culture.

I'm a born again Christian. I attended an Alpha course in 2006 and left a believer. Life can be really crap sometimes but I get such a lift from Communion.

I was raised an atheist although my parents come from Jewish and Christian backgrounds.

I am not perfect, always a work in progress. I am not anti-homosexual etc because I don't think that Jesus would shun my gay friends - 'What Would Jesus Do' is a good maxim.

As for other religions, I respect others' right to believe in another God, or no God, but obviously since I believe that Jesus has died, and risen for us, it correlates that I think Muslims, Atheists etc are wrong in their belief - although I'd fight for their right to hold that belief.