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Philosophy/religion

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Beware of walking the Labyrinth

34 replies

zozzle · 14/06/2010 11:10

This practise has pagan/occult origins and (very strangely) is being used by some Christian churches as a means to helping people to find themselves / draw them closer to God through contemplative prayer.

This is not something that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should get involved with.

This is my opinion - what do you think?

OP posts:
MaryBS · 14/06/2010 11:39

Ely Cathedral has one. Personally I see nothing sinister or occult in it, and it can be used to reinforce a positive message about Christianity.

A lot of Christian practices have their origin in other religions. Paul himself did this when he told the Romans about "their" unknown God, and declared who it was.

AMumInScotland · 14/06/2010 12:04

Celebrating the return of the light in midwinter, and the coming of renewed life in Spring also have pagan origins, but Christianity has enthusiastically "hijacked" those to colour them with Christian symbolism. So I don't see anything wrong in using the theme of a Labyrinth to focus on Christian prayer.

permanentvacation · 14/06/2010 12:42

I know many people who have used a labyrinthe as a basis for a worship installation, and it has been helpful for a good number of them. To criticise something for its roots but overlook how it is actually used is nonsensical - you may as well close down Christmas (from the pagan feast of Saturnalia) and Easter (note the Anglo-Saxon pagan goddess of Eastre). The church took these pagan festivals and Christianised them.

And labyrinths have been used by the church since the 13th/14th centuries, with some gothic cathedrals incorporating them into their flooring. So I doubt if they are genuinely pagan, the church has been using them for centuries. Are you sure you're not just wanting to be against something for the sake of it zozzle?

zozzle · 14/06/2010 16:03

"Are you sure you're not just wanting to be against something for the sake of it zozzle?"
No permanentV - I am mature enough to see both sides of the argument.

Just because something has been done by the church by centuries doesn't mean it is right - I'm sure God would weep at many of the things supposedly done in his name!!

Deuteronomy 12:1-14, 18:9-13 and Exodus 34:10-17? - In each of these Scripture passages God explicitly tells His people to refrain from anything used in pagan practices. Moreover, the entire book of Jeremiah is a warning against involvement in alternative religious practices. It couldn't be more clear really!!

I just don't see how Easter and Christmas fit into this...

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 14/06/2010 16:43

Many of the aspects of our "Christmas" celebrations, and even the choice of date, have pagan origins. The same for Easter, in that case even the name (in English) comes from the name of a pagan goddess.

So, the fact that something "has pagan origins" does not automatically mean that it is in some way dodgy or dangerous or unChristian.

Labyrinths have been part of Christian tradition since medieval times. They are not "pagan" or "occult" they are a means to focussing on prayer, to working your way to the centre of a problem, leaving it with God, and walking back out again feeling relieved of your burden. They are not a "pagan practice", or "alternative", they are simply a way to focus your prayers to God, through Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

zozzle · 14/06/2010 22:57

Christmas and Easter are different in the sense that they (at least in our house) don't share pagan symbols with the original pagan festivals (yes, they do share their time of year). I don't have a problem with Christian events sharing the same time of year as pagan events as it acts to counter them in some way - eg. we don't do halloween but we would do a light party on the same night.

For me, the issue with labyrinths is that you are actively choosing to walk the route of a pagan symbol (and therefore surely embracing all it stands for) while you are praying. As I mentioned in my previous post The Bible does not condone this.

I'm not the only christian who believes this see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_labyrinth

Wikipedia says:

"Some clergy and other believers[who?] now associate them with New Age mystical practices or even occultism."

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 15/06/2010 09:59

Do you not have Easter eggs then? I know Christianity has now made them emblems of the stone which was rolled away from the tomb, but the fact is they are fertility symbols which go back to pagan times.

Anyway, I think you have to decide for yourself if a labyrinth helps or hinders your spiritual journey. To me, it symbolises only what you choose to let it symbolise for yourself - if to you it symbolises paganism, then you should not use it. For me, it symbolises Christian prayer, and the "one true path" of Christianity.

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean."

Revelry · 15/06/2010 12:02

I don't think it matters how you pray. What's important for me is that it comes from the heart and the intention is good. Whether that's done by walking a labyrinth, standing the middle of a circle of stones, sitting at some traffic lights or in a church makes no difference.

I agree with AMIS, if the symbolism of it doesn't resonate well with you then avoid it, and that's absolutely fine for you and your path. But I don't think we all have to do the same.

Nemofish · 15/06/2010 19:11

Bless you Zozzle, I don't think you'd know 'pagan' if it bit you on the bum - no offence!

Paganism is just another outlook. The Christian god does state that he is a very jealous god, and as the 'new' religion that overtook paganism, christian scholars had every reason to decry it as 'evil' and associate pagan deities with the christian idea of the devil.

Have you spoken with anyone from the pagan federation? Or read pagan dawn, their magazine? How about reading some books about wicca, scott cunningham has written several.

I am not pagan by the way, as such, but I understand their outlook. I lean a bit more towards Buddhism myself.

zozzle · 15/06/2010 19:32

Thanks Nemofish for your comments but actually I do know quite a bit about paganism and wicca, which is precisely why I take the stance I do.

I'm always slightly dubious when people start their sentance with "Bless you..." this always means something slightly patronising is to follow.

However, no offence taken Nemofish.

OP posts:
Nemofish · 15/06/2010 21:14

Ooh I can be a bit patronising at times

I call it my inner schoolteacher.

I still don't understand why you seem to feel that pagan = evil.

stressedHEmum · 16/06/2010 16:19

pagan is "evil" because it involves false religious practices and beliefs originating from Satan, designed to lead people astray and condemned and abhorred by God. People who take this view tend to belief that these kinds of practices (and all others not synonymous with a strict interpretation of Christian belief) are actually equivalent to Devil worship.

As far as the labyrinth goes, many ancient cathedrals and monasteries had them as a way of focussing thoughts. Walking the path has a kind of hypnotic effect. (This is disapproved of on it's own in some circles because it's like meditation.) Walking around in circles or whatever for a protracted period of time probably has the same effect, allowing you to empty your mind of distractions, like concentrating on where you are going, so I can't see how walking a black and white path can be much worse.

You have to decide for yourself whether you want to engage in any kind of practice or ritual. At the end of the day, we are all personally accountable to God, so we have to go with our own conscience.

Zozzle, do you not have christmas trees, holly wreaths, candles/fairy lights or anything like that? Most of the symbols of Christmas and Easter are pagan in origin, or at least not Christian. Even the name Easter is derived from the festival of a fertility goddess.

Nemofish · 16/06/2010 19:19

I don't believe that pagan religious practices are false or that they originated from satan.

Anyone who knows about paganism would be aware of that, unless they have come across some particularly warped individuals who actually have little interest in paganism or spirituality, and every interest in serving their own ends.

I find it funny and infuriating when people say something is evil, and you ask 'why' and the answer is cos god said so. In the bible. You mean that bible of dubious origin that has been rewritten thousands of times over the past 2 thousand years and now, in all likelihood, bears very little resemblance to the original document (of dubious origins).

Must be evil then. Dunno why, just is.

I think some critical thinking would be advised.

I believe that murder is, shall we say evil. If someone asks me why, I am not going to say god or the bible says so. I would say, it is wrong to take the life of another human being, I would say that such an act, aside from finishing the victims life, would also cause grief and destruction emotionally, for the victims family and friends. Like a ripple effect of grief and loss. No human being should visit that destruction upon another. So I have deduced that murder is a bad thing.

So, if we take away the origin of satan bit, given that the pagan religion itself predates christianity by a good few hundred years, if not far more, why is paganism evil?

stressedHEmum · 17/06/2010 11:18

Nemofish: the position above isn't mine. It's what people who take the kind of view in the op tend to belief. Anything that isn't "Christian" or doesn't fit with their interpretation of the Bible is evil and from the devil. I know women (or used to) who wouldn't let their kids play POkemon because they believed wholeheartedly that it was evil and led to demon worship. They thought that the little pokemon things were representations of demons and that Satan worked through the game to lead their kids astray. Same for yugi-oh, d&d and other roleplaying. I have known families who don't have tv etc. because of the outside influences that it brings, letting SAtan into their homes to distract their children from being focussed on God in Christ. I have even known people who converted their whole families to veganism in preparation for "the end." All personal choices informed by sincere faith.

I also have a book of devotions for mothers that advises that you go through every room in your house cleansing it of anything that Jesus would disapprove of, so that would be fantasy novels or books with anything "impure" in them like sex, violence, bad language, magic or themes that aren't in line with "Christianity", most video games and dvds, objects with connections to other religions like crystals or whatever, most music except classical or religious.....I even knew one mother who HE'ed her kids to protect them from the satanic influences of school. She felt that it was her Christian duty to protect her children from exposure to heathens (non-christians and compromised christians like me) and homosexuals (male teachers, apparently.)I know of many families, from online groups of which I am a member, who HE simply to stop their kids from being exposed to the evil of "the world", i.e. anything not Christian.

I once belonged to a religious group that didn't allow its members to read anything not produced or approved by its leaders or listen to music not produced by the church. Everything else was from the devil.

What I do know is that there is no talking to people who have these beliefs. There are plenty people in the churches that I have attended over the years who believe that the bible is the literal, inerrant word of God and anything else just is not true and originates with the devil.They would never accept that the bible has changed in any way. We have the books that we do because the Holy Spirit guided those choosing and because they contain the knowledge that God is allowing us to have. They do not accept allegory or interpretation at all. I was actually asked to leave an online home ed support group for Christian mothers because I suggested that some of the bible was not to be taken literally.

FOr these people Satan is behind everything. I had a study group recently which was looking at the story of the flood. Several people there believed that modern ideas regarding the story were the work of the devil, aimed at distracting us from the truth of God's word, one even went so far as to tell the minister that Satan had obviously fooled him, too.

You can't rationalise this kind of belief and critical thinking doesn't apply. I don't agree with the idea that paganism, or anything else really,is evil, but I do understand where that idea comes from and have come into contact with it much more often than I would like. Mostly it comes from scriptures like Deuteronomy, Daniel, Revelation etc. and from 2nd Timothy 3:16 which says that all scripture is god-breathed and therefore absolutely, irrefutably true.

Oh dear, this has turned into something of an essay. I apologise for going on and on. I just didn't want anyone to think that what I posted yesterday was a reflection of my own beliefs.

stressedHEmum · 17/06/2010 11:26

I seem to have forgotten to answer your question. Paganism is evil because it's not Christianity. It was evil before Christian times because it wasn't orthodox Judaism and the god being worshipped wasn't the Hebrew God.

Any form of religion that doesn't worship and honour YHWH doesn't originate with God and is therefore of the Devil. So in ancient times all societies other than the Hebrews were worshipping the Devil in one way or another and in post-Christ times anyone who is not following a strict interpretation of Christianity is worshipping Satan, even if it is inadvertently.

You can't take Satan out of the equation in this world view. However, I am not saying that this is what the OP believes, just that this is my experience of people who believe that other religions are evil.

Nemofish · 17/06/2010 19:55

I get you, stressedHEmum.

My dads family are Mennonites...

You are quite right saying that rationality and critical thinking don't apply here. I somehow expect to be able to talk people round as it is so obviously complete cobblers (to me).

I don't mean that in an offensive way towards christian religions in general, just the more extreme side, eg. god put the dinosaur fossils there to test our faith.
It scares me that some people believe that though.

stressedHEmum · 17/06/2010 20:30

AH, the Mennonites. I find then very admirable in principle but I don't think that I could be one!

Actually, sometimes I am envious of those who have such a strong and well defined faith. Everything is sure and certain for them and they live life confident of their own rectitude and eventual salvation. I think though, that it must be a bit scary to see the devil everywhere you look, on TV, in books, on CDs, even in the earth under our feet.

Nemofish · 17/06/2010 22:03

Yes I know what you mean.

I really 'got' religion as a child, I loved the idea that you just had to follow this set of rules, and then you are assured of your place in heaven. It took away the moral dilemmas to a large extent, I didn't have to question and say is this wrong or is this right?

I don't like the idea that people don't do bad things just to avoid hell, rather than because they have a moral code and therefore wouldn't do something bad.

Sorry I am waffling now...

stressedHEmum · 18/06/2010 08:09

I understand that completely, Nemofish.

When I was at our Lenten study group, we were talking about faith and morality or some such thing and it emerged that certain people within my church ( a small number) believe that if your not a Christian then you can't possibly have any morals I couldn't believe that. I did try to have a reasoned discussion re social mores and the development of society and about how civilisation would never have been able to begin or advance without some sort of code of behaviour to ease the way. I even pointed out the Paul talks about God putting the Law into men's hearts so that where people behave morally without the Law, God is still behind it, but to no avail.

One of these people also told me that as far as he is concerned, he doesn't believe that there is any such thing as an atheist. Everyone secretly believes in God, they are just to stubborn or afraid to admit it.

All this makes it sound as if I attend some whacky, way-out-there church when, in fct, I'm a member of the CoS, probably the most mainstream, boring, unprogressive reformed church in the world. These extreme people are everywhere.

Nemofish · 18/06/2010 11:48

What is CoS?

I'm guessing it doesn't stand for Church of Satan

stressedHEmum · 18/06/2010 13:44

Church of Scotland, where, in the main, Satan is rarely mentioned. Our minister doesn't believe in him, which is hilarious under the circumstances. He is more of a "potential for evil in all men" sort of guy.

We're the national church in Scotland, but unlike the Church of England, we aren't a state church as such and have complete freedom from interference by Government and State. Based on CAlvin and Knox, we are a presbyterian church, we don't have things like bishops or whatever and we don't have any kind of head bummer, apart from the moderator of the general assembly, who changes every year. CoS is renowned for being conservative in its approach to most thing (my DS2 says it's renown is for being boring and old-fashioned, also full of old dears who would keel over if faced with a modern hymn!) www.churchofscotland.org.uk

Nemofish · 18/06/2010 22:20

They actually sound quite anti-hierarchical and quite funky!

stressedHEmum · 19/06/2010 09:12

AH, you would think so, wouldn't you. What with all the democracy and anti-centralised authority stuff going on. Sadly, it's not really the case. Some CoS congregations are quite modern and progressive in the way they present Sunday worship and the like, but many (like mine) are still stuck in the Dark Ages of nice hymn sandwich every week. The only mainstream church in Scotland which is more hardcore than the CoS is the Free Kirk, and they still wear hats, don't have singing or music and picket Sunday ferry sailings and shop openings. They do quite like talking about hell and the devil as well.

My own church's services, despite the best efforts of the minister, are awash with glum, elderly faces and lacklustre singing, to the extent that I was asked to take away the shakers and things that I had given the Sunday School because it wasn't appropriate for the kids to use them! And we almost didn't recruit a new minister because she doesn't like wearing robes! Oh, how terribly inappropriate. Thankfully, sense prevailed and she will be inducted in August. (Our current minister is a temp. who is over 70.)

On the whole, CoS is a very conservative presbyterian church. Just think of presbyterian work ethic and presbyterian guilt (I don't know if phrases like that would be known in England because I don't know if you have any presbyterian churches ) The idea of church by committee is a good one but it falls into the usual trap of anything run by committee. We have a Board and Session, of which I am bizarrely a member, which is completely stuck in the olden days, won't agree to any changes, blocks the minister at every cut and turn and has certain members who are so obsessed with the idea of their own status and power within the congregation that they make it impossible for anyone else's voice to be heard or for any change/progress to happen. For instance our Board argued for 2 1/2 years over whether to buy pew cushions for the sanctuary or not because a small number of very vocal and pushy members a)didn't want to spend any money, even though we have over 100k in the bank and b) were concerned that some of our elderly people might be incontinent and make the cushions smell. Very Christian! In the end, we didn't get them.

Then there are matters like the gay issue which is threatening to split the church completely, with members already leaving and whole congregations preparing to do the same. The Wee Free are actually debating introducing music to their services in expectation of an influx of disgruntled CoS churches.

To be fair, Head Office likes to think that it is quite funky and progressive and there are a lot of good people with good ideas involved in things like mission and discipleship. Sadly, it is difficult to get the enthusiasm and newer outlooks to filter down into congregations, never mind to get churches to implement things. Because each church has its own court of session, they make decisions for themselves, apart from obvious things that depend on Church Law, Creeds etc. so all the good ideas and new approaches under the sun won't help with a Kirk Session that doesn't want to change. When we had a visit form a guy from M&D come to talk to us about boosting attendance, at the invitation of the minister, only about half a dozen folk turned up and no-one from Kirk Session came. Says it all really, and a lot of CoS churches are like that. I think that the problem lies in the fact that many Elders are just that, as are many ordinary members. The CHurch suits them as it is and will see them out in the next 10-15 years. SO they aren't bothered about taking the long view and interesting younger people. Hence the traditional church is losing out big time to the more evangelical, pentecostal faiths. Our Sunday School has about 5 kids on a regular basis, 3 of them mine, my mother's church has about 25. The local evangelical church has a youth membership of over 750, because the way they present themselves is much more in tune with younger people and children.

Nemofish · 19/06/2010 15:15

I do wonder if Christianity is on it's way out in the UK, albeit very slowly.

Makes me sad, as despite my personal beliefs, there is a lot of wonderful charitable work done in the community by the various different churches.

AMumInScotland · 19/06/2010 15:46

I certainly think "default" Christianity is on its way out. For my parents and grandparents generations, it was just the norm that you were part of the church, the only thing that varied was which version. Of course a few people had specific other faiths, but they had that instead of "church", you didn't meet that many people who didn't have at least some vague affiliation with a religion. That doesn't mean they all believed in it, or went very often, but it was there in the background to some extent. Even people who were atheists were generally lapsed from what they had done as a child / what their parents did.

But my generation drifted off from church, and largely hasn't drifted back, and DSs generation mainly has no experience of it. Except in school, or to get a faith school place. It's just not the default setting for them.

I don't think all of the churches have caught up with that idea yet - there has always been a feeling that, even if congregations shrank, people who had drifted away in their teens would continue to drift back once they settled and had families of their own, and it's just not happening in the kind of numbers that would be sustainable. Not in the main denominations, anyway!