Are you sick of apologising for your faith?

[SongBiird]

At first I was thinking only as a Muslim but when discussing it with my friend who's Catholic she said she felt the same.

Instead of discussing the benefits of our chosen religions, our chosen paths in life (or right now, when discussing it with those who are not of the same faith or any faith we end up getting into debates about some of the things either a) people don't understand and thus take the wrong (often negative) way, b)other fanatics/fundamentalists/crazed nutters have done in "the name" of our faith c)how as a female we are oppressed in our faith.

There are countless other things that I feel I end up apologising for, or trying to justify; and I say justify because often, explaining isn't good enough!

Does anybody else find themselves in the same position?

I don't know any atheist or non-religious person who vigorously argues their point to religious friends on a regular basis. Most of us keep schtum because we know our real views on religion would offend the religious people we care about.

Likewise, if religious people start discussing their faith with me, I usually just glaze over and smile and nod a bit. I have only ever been aggressive towards someone who started banging on about her 'Christian' pro-life views at work to the extent that I couldn't actually get any work done.

Live and let live, I say

justaboutupright, If you have a discussion in public about how non members of your church/party/group treat you then those non members will be interested in pointing out their side.

I'm pretty sure that if an atheist starts a thread about the way religion imposes on his life there will be religious posters in there like a shot.

Compulsory worship in state schools is frequently brought up because many religious people will say "why do they interfere with us. why can't they let us have our beliefs and leave us alone"

The rest of us feel resentment because we'd quite like that option, but the religions already impose their views and beliefs on us and won't leave US alone.

Anyone who is religious and feels that non believers take too much interest in their beliefs/actions should speak to the leaders of their religion about leaving the rest of us alone. We'll be sure to let you know if we need you to tell us what to do.

"I'm pretty sure that if an atheist starts a thread about the way religion imposes on his life there will be religious posters in there like a shot."

They haven't yet!

justaboutupright - I don't think it clearly wasn't about faith schools, it was about people with faith who feel got at by those of other faiths or without faiths. Well secularists and athiests feel that way too about faith schools, can you see the connection.

To say basically, bog off our thread heathen, is quite insulting and wrong on an open forum.

Well thank you for saying that justaboutupright. It's refreshing to be able to have a discussion about religion which doesn't descend into abuse

FWIW I do think faiths are vilified by society quite often. Particularly islam but also any faith which is quite strident. I mean, I don't particularly mind avid religionists who passionately believe what they say, but most people take one look and reply 'nutcase'.

I think hindus have this right though, they do their thing, as far as I can see fairly quietly and happily and live side by side with other faiths in the UK. No-one seems to feel threatened by them either.

The problem comes when people try and press their beliefs on others, but I guess that's what religions have to do to survive - a bit like window salespeople (no offence intended but both rely on converting reluctant and skeptical punters).

very well put onager

I don't apologise for my faith.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes - Romans 1:16

God yes, but I'm Catholic and everyone likes to give us a good bashing. (Not always unjustified I know. It's hard being a Catholic at the moment).

Greensleeves, I'm pretty horrified by that, would have thought that would have only taken place in a denominational school. Although, I'm finding out from mumsnet that this isn't an abnormality.

"It's a legal requirement to have an act of worship once a day in this country."

Well I didn't know that.

In all honesty though, this wasn't meant to be a discussion on religion in schools. It came about as I was on a play date chatting about random getting to know you things when another mother said something completely offensive and out of the blue along the lines of "you're Muslim so you agree with suicide bombings". Which obviously took me by surprise and left me open-mouthed. Now she was particularly ignorant and further discussion emphasised that, but I have been in other situations, where although not actually talking about religion, maybe politics, or something that's in the news and as Riven says, it's completely about being blamed and having to defend myself because of what someone else who calls themselves a Muslim does.

In response to the OP - Yes!

I am Muslim too, so am frequently expected to have some kind of mind link to all 1 billion of my co-religionists.

IME it is always the atheists/anti-religious types who have the most to say on the matter. They will ask me passive agressively about my religion and then proceed with a long rant about how religion is wrong e.t.c.

HIgher Still programme = Scottish equivalent to gcse/ a levels

So you're generalising about atheists in your complaint about being generalised about yourself. No wonder it never stops...

If you are going to habitually dish it, you have to be able to take it, greenie.

are you referring to me, or GreeandSilverStars?

if me, it's Greeny not greenie

I do think the "dishing it vs. taking it" angle is slightly skewed by the fact that many religious people rather put themselves out there by "going on" about their faith - indeed, many of them are encouraged to evangelise.

By contrast, in general, atheists go about their atheism quietly and not inviting comment on it - except, say, if someone says something hideously crass, stupid, uninformed and ridiculous about atheism either in real life or online. (Which tends to happen about every week or so.)

So, yes,we ought to be able to "take" it but we generally don't invite it - with most atheists you meet, you wouldn't know unless you ask. With most Christians I have met I have generally known within the first few minutes of the conversation.

This seems a bit puerile. Are you seriously saying it's OK for people from group X to generalise about group Y because people from group Y has generalised about group X? Religious people don't want to be treated as having any link to what extremists do in the name of religion, or asked to justify it - but it's OK for atheists to be treated as all one and the same because some have gone on at you about how religion is wrong? Like I said - that sort of attitude is why argument never stops...

It's fine to be irritated by being misunderstood but if you start thinking it's all the fault of some 'other' group, some 'Them', for misunderstanding you, then I think what's you're finding irritating may be not so much being misunderstood, as being disagreed with. Sure it's frustrating to explain why you think something and have someone still not agree with you but that doesn't automatically mean the problem is with them - maybe sometimes your arguments are just not that compelling and it's not your audience's fault!

Riven, of course it wasn't you committed the atrocities or whatever and I even understand your resentment up to a point. Especially if people are making mean and stupid remarks to you.

However your example doesn't work. Slavery is something bad we used to do that we made illegal. Not a bit of our history to be proud of, but we did stop and it was before any of us were born so nothing we can do now affects it.

Calling yourself a Muslim, a Catholic or even a Tory/Labour/BNP member is supporting a group that exists right now.

If the groups rules/beliefs are used to justify committing atrocities then everyone supporting that group should feel some responsibility.

The power of a religion/culture comes from the combined support of individual members.

I'm not sure I got into the "generalising" argument at all. I just stated what I have seen as a truth backed up by evidence - that atheists don't offer up their status unless challenged, whereas the religious do.

There aren't necessarily any "arguments" to be "put" as such in that sense, as if it were Labour arguing with Tory or Star Trek fans arguing with Battlestar Galactica fans - it simply comes down to where the evidence is seen to be supporting.

I might question your sampling methods. And what you are actually sampling too. I would suggest for example that mentioning in passing something you saw in church is quite, quite different to evangelising, or "going on" about faith, but would still mark you out as a Christian.

And re your sampling method, I would say that with many Christians you meet, you wouldn't know. My colleagues of several years were pretty surprised when I mentioned something about church and discovered that I was a regular attender. They had assumed I think that I was an atheist, if indeed they had thought about my religious affiliation or lack of it at all. So you may see it as "truth backed up with evidence", but I would say the validity of your study is potentially significantly flawed.

I wasn't replying to you UD, but to MmeTrueBlueberry.

Religious people go on about their faith and atheists keep it to themselves? Certainly not the case amongst people I know. Amongst my friends and acquaintances by far the loudest on the subject of religion are those who vehemently reject everything it stands for. And in public life you won't find a noisier evangelist than Dawkins. Compare his approach to that of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

(Then again I am utterly rabid on the subject of faith school admission policies, so frequently fall into the category of noisy evangelical atheist myself, but this is a slightly different topic.)

I can quite see that it must be hard for both Catholics and Muslims at the moment. I think it has a lot do with the dominance of tabloid culture which thrives on creating scapegoats and has little time for nuanced discussion.