Are you sick of apologising for your faith?

[SongBiird]

At first I was thinking only as a Muslim but when discussing it with my friend who's Catholic she said she felt the same.

Instead of discussing the benefits of our chosen religions, our chosen paths in life (or right now, when discussing it with those who are not of the same faith or any faith we end up getting into debates about some of the things either a) people don't understand and thus take the wrong (often negative) way, b)other fanatics/fundamentalists/crazed nutters have done in "the name" of our faith c)how as a female we are oppressed in our faith.

There are countless other things that I feel I end up apologising for, or trying to justify; and I say justify because often, explaining isn't good enough!

Does anybody else find themselves in the same position?

tired of the 'old man in the sky' assumptions>>

Be fair now. Many Christians do believe in him so you can hardly expect us to know in advance which kind of Christian you are.

I said once on here that it would help if there were different terms for different kinds of Christianity to avoid those misunderstandings. All I got was people saying "why should I have to call myself something different?"

And of course you don't have to. But if you insist on using a word to describe yourself that is commonly used (and has been for 1000s of years) to describe certain beliefs then yes people will assume that is what you believe.

If you call yourself a window cleaner people will leap to the assumption that you clean windows.

Hmm. I think think it's more that you say "I don't think that, I think this", and then people don't engage with that and continue to argue against the type of belief you have just explcitly said you don't share. Which makes you feel like a bit of a spare part. But then, as I said before, debating belief itself is generally on a hiding to nothing, on here at least. And I agree with the atheists on religion in education, so where;s the fun in that?

people don't engage with that and continue to argue against the type of belief you have just explcitly said you don't share.>>

That IS unfair as it goes. Trouble is I'm probably guilty of that. When I'm ranting at debating with several different Christians I find myself muddling them together.

It is confusing. I've had someone say 'how dare you suggest that Christians believe the world was made in seven days. That's just nonsense' even though another Christian in the same thread was saying just that. Hence my suggestion to call it something different.

Then don't say "Christians think...". If you are debating with someone, talk to them. If you are talking about a particular group, say "some Christians think that the world was created in 6 days". I don't see the problem. Because you know we don;t all think the same. You know all Christians aren't creationists. So don't do the the bewildered "it's all so confusing, you need different names" thing. Use the word "some". That's all. And if someone tells you what they think, listen.

OK. And please can Christians stop saying that because I don't want my children to pray at school, that means that I don't want them to learn about Christianity, have a moral compass and have a sense of the transcendent.

But seeker what if your children want to pray at school?

They can do it privately. Just like yours can.

Why justify yourself - I don't share your belief, so what? Frankly I avoid conversations about faith because of arguments such as this.

My children attend a bog-standard community primary school

had I wanted to send them to a faith school I would have done so

and yet still assemblies are conducted with "let us pray", the ICE Team (don't ask) come in and evangelise about them and try to "make Christianity fun" at them in the most painful way

and at the Harvest assembly the local Baptist minister came in and said things like "no close your eyes and bow your heads children, because we are talking to God" and "praise our Lord for providing these wonderful vegetables"

the kids were looking over at the veg patch and thinking "er, no, actually WE grew these vegetables"

I don't think he or the Head should apologise for their faith, but an apology for their glaringly bad manners would have been nice

Yes, they do rather like "god" to take credit for all the lovely touchy-feely stuff like vegetables and sunshine. If you are going to do that, then at least have the decency to admit it is therefore also responsible for the inconvenient and nasty stuff, like, say, streptococcus and yersinia pestis.

That will never happen, though, because religions prosper by keeping their flock (highly appropriate collective noun, seemingly unironically used by vicars themselves) emotionally and intellectually subjugated to the point of infantilism.

On the "learning about all religions in school" point, the problem there of course is that you can't cover every single thing everyone believes in, right up to and including Scientology and the theories of David Icke. So there has to be a cut-off point somewhere. This involves a concession that, yes, some religions and superstitions are just too silly to discuss. We just then need to decide where the cut-off point is. And why. Which can be amusing as they try to tie themselves in knots with special pleading.

I agree with Greenie (again ). I sent DD to a community preschool twice as far away as the local ones (both faith schools) yet they a bloody preschool prayer. Why do 2 and 3 year olds in a non faith school need to be brainwashed?

It's a legal requirement to have an act of worship once a day in this country.

Yes Songbird I know where you're coming from. I'm catholic have embraced the aspects of catholicism that are positive and have dropped aspects I disagree with. I've sent my son to a nondenominational school for several reasons. I still have a v strong faith and I pray a lot. I like hearing about others faiths but don't pry ever and as i've had so many judgemental questions and statements about the catholic faith I just keep my belief system personal now and have stopped discussing it. I'm appalled by the latest scandals in our church but that is the human element and I can't help feeling that people can be gleeful about the way the catholic church is going and love a chance to get jibes in to anyone catholic. Its tiresome and exhausting. Each to their own. Don't criticise what you don't understand.

schools can and do blur that if they choose to though

if schools are playing regularly it's usually because the head is a god-botherer and a bit of a megalomaniac

praying, not playing! playing is what they should be doing

religion in schools is a totally appropriate thing to be debated here, because like it or not it is partially resonsible for the negative feelings many non-believers have

difficult to sympathise with a persecution complex while the institution to which the complainant belings is one of the most powerful, intolerant and dictatorial the world has ever seen and STILL maintains an anachronistic stranglehold on something as basic as state education

and it's perfectly fair and logical IMO for people who are happy to call themselves Christians to be identified with the well-known and definitive attitudes and activities that characterise the Christian establishment. If I said I were a BNP voter you would expect to be able to challenge me about BNP philosophy and policy without me bleating "blame Nick Griffin, I didn't write the manifesto"

"It's a legal requirement to have an act of worship once a day in this country."

It's not quite as clear cut as that. The statutory requirement is to have assemblies "of a broadly Christian nature' but if the Head is prepared to make a case for it, these only have to account for 51% of assemblies.

Unless things have changed a lot since my Civil Service days.

God bothering assemblies are so much easier though - they require less thought. "Dear Lord, thank you for the {insert nice things here}. Amen.

Ah, so is this a thread for people with faith only? And there was me thinking this was an open forum!

yes open forum

and I disagree that Christians would stay off a thread addressed to non-believers

rubbage

I think it is good that we did

partly because it illuminates the OP's point

partly because it illustrates that debate and discussion and challenge WILL happen on a public forum, whether you think it necessary or not.

"that I read the Bible as if it was an instruction manual, that without it I simply wouldn't know right from wrong"

That's something that comes from a common anti-atheist argument by religious people though - the argument that people without religion have no way of knowing right from wrong - it's a 'that's what's wrong with atheism' argument.

Can you therefore blame nonreligious people, who've experienced that argument, for thinking that religious people DO rely on their religion and its texts to tell them right from wrong? Then perhaps someone who describes themselves as a Christian comes along who doesn't treat the Bible like that, and understandably finds it annoying when people assume they do.

I think the fundamental truth here is that it's always annoying to be misunderstood, no matter what that's about. And when you've got millions of people who nominally share the same label of 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or 'atheist' but are really very different from each other, there's HUGE potential for misunderstanding. I think it's equally annoying for everyone really, and not particularly worse if you belong to one group rather than another.

justaboutupright, I think you are being quite rude frankly. I am a secularist - I believe in a separation between religion and state. I support your right to worship whatever you like but individually from my right to follow my beliefs.

The whole schools thing comes from the assertion that I don't want other people forcing my kids to go through some non-sensical ritual for no other purpose than someone else thinks it's good for them.