can someone point me in the right direction please. Need some information about the early church, in particular the christiantiy prevalent in the sudan in the sixth century.

[farmerjones]

i have some knowledge abou tthis, and it came up in a discussion recently. unfortunately, it seems i was the most knowledgable. something i am definitly not comfortable being.
does anyone on mumsnet know anything about this, and help me out please?
tiz

they're Coptic, arent' they?

is this any help?

thank you. will have a loook

yes I was thinking OP referred to the Copts. I am not an expert but what is it that you wanted to know? Maybe we can find something.

The primate of the coptic church is I think in Alexandria in Egypt, I should think they have a website with the early history of their church, St. Mark etc. but I don't know specifically about the history of the church in Sudan.

is this saying what i think its saying? that the christians at the time werent accepting of the trinity?

background to my question is this. Early muslims migrated to abyssina and were given sanctuary by the christian king.

do you mean on that Wikipedia link? I had a look but I didn't find any mention of them rejecting the trinity - which is God in three persons or expressions of divinity if you will: the Father, the Son (JC) and the Holy Ghost/HOly spirit.

They do mention conflicts about the two natures of Christ in the first paragraph, ie were the physical and divine natures somehow separate or combined from conception on? If I understood that bit correctly.

really don't know much about the Coptic church in Africa. Interesting to read about it. Have just had a look at the entry Muslim Invasion of Egypt on Wikipedia and the attempt to invade Nubia.

Maybe this is what you want:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia migration]]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_to_Abyssinia

see, i told you i didnt know that much about it. isnt the two nature the bit about god being three aspects of the same? i recall having it described to me once like three drops of water blending into one.
so are the nature aspects different then?

i'd like to understand, but find googling very difficult, particularly with such topics. its fine for finding out about slebs but knowing what is or isnt accurate, and being able to understand it, even if it is accurate, is something i find quite difficult on the internet.
please help me understand this further. one of the things that i do seem to know, is that the trinity wasnt accepted as such until the third century, but i cant recall the source of that information.

yes, that is the discussion on islam we were having, and why a christian king would go against the wishes of the economic superpower of the region at the time, to give asylum to a small minority group.

well a lot of clever people seem to have spent a great deal of time thinking about things and I don't think really it is âll^ that important.

I'm no theologian and I don't think I know more than you but as I see it, this business about Chrsit having two natures and whether they are separate or united in some way and from what point in time they became united is down to this. The point about Christi s that he is both human like you and me - thus fulfilling the Old Testament prediction of the Messiah AND at the same time he is fully divine, he is God come down to live amongst us in human form to teach us about God and ultimately as we are so recalcitrant that no other means were left , to die for us, that we might get to heaven despite our sinnful nature.

So when did he become divine, in the womb of Mary? At some stage after birth, when he had his bar mitzvah, or when exactly? I think that lies behind it all and the copts seem to have thought differently about this than some of the other churches.

I'm no expert though, just how I understand it.

sorry abouit all the tipos, am in a bit of a rush since I have to go and pick up dd.

It's interesting about the Copts, I didn't know that about the Muslims finding refuge with the king of Abyssinia.

zen, thank you for taking the time to explain to me.
you have described perfectly the difference between muslims and christians. muslims believe he (JC) was a messiah, just not divine as well, even though he was concieved by the immaculate conception.
so, at that time, mid sixth century, the coptic christians were probably in the majority, at least in that part of the world, and therefore when a group of people came along from arabia, fleeing from torture, with a faith similar to his own, it makes sense that he would give them sanctuary.

but, i need to read up more about the coptic church.

interesting article on coptic church

The Immaculate Conception is Mary, not how Jesus was conceived...

I alway understood the Trinity and the natures of Christ etc as like a person looking in a 3 way vanity mirror.. I thought that Jesus didn't become divine as such, but was always divine, hence the requirement of Mary to be Immaculate and without sin, i.e perfect enough to carry him...

Yes, I believe you are entirely correct.
There was a lot of discussion about all that in the early church obviously. I am not up on it.

According to the Bible, Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant with Jesus - therefore we speak of the virgin birth. This is one thing, Jesus is the result of the Holy Ghost "overshadowing" Mary when she was a virgin and Jesus is not therefore fathered by a human father as would be the normal experience here on earth.

So he is human born in human form from a human mother. He is divine being one fo the 3 persons of God, existant from all time and not made in the way babies of human mothers-fathers are made in the womb. The question about how these two natures - the human and the divine relate to each other within Jesus is something people have discussed and church doctrines (teachings) have developped around.

Personally I don't find it all that important but it seems this is something that set the Coptic church apart a bit (that's a clear, understandable article btw).

The doctrine of the immaculate conception is something els and concerns Mary and whether she was born tainted with the stain of original sin (disobedience of Adam and Eve to the word of God) which otherwise humans are all born with.

Can't believe I am posting all this actually.

Shame the Coptic church is not better known - and its history, fascinating to read about.

i guess i havent used the correct words. muslims believe that jesus was concieved, put into her womb, whatever the correct wording is, without a biological father. that mary was a virgin, yet became a mother anyways.

you understood it correctly, mac just wanted to clarify the terminology with the immaculate conception so it wouldn't be misleading.

I suppose the idea was if Jesus was wholly divine from conception, then how could he have been placed within the womb of a woman tainted with original sin? Therefore Mary must have been an exception and have been without sin. Truly I think the early church spent too much time on this kind of debate and in the end I dont find it all that important but I suppose they were under fire at the time (persecution etc) and churches were springing up all over the place and things were getting muddled. It was an attempt to make clear what Christians can/should believe but sometimes I think it achieved the reverse....

Just my thoughts though

not just the early church...Doctrine of immaculate conception came a whole lot later , 19th century I think as an official teaching

anyway, sorry if we got too much off on a tangent.

I just watched an interesting documentary on the history of the Coptic church on youtube actually to find out more about it - so thanks for sparking my interest farmerjones!

They did not mention the early Muslim refugees from persecution though, in fact it was mainly about christianity in Egypt.

Perhaps in a predominantly polytheistic world, the Christians of the Sudan felt a strong affinity with the early Muslims simply because they were also monotheistic? (I realise Muslims have difficulty seeing Christianity as monotheistic because of the concept of the trinity.)

Have you discovered the website Ship of Fools? They have forums and you can ask on there. Perhaps post in the "Heaven" forum, although it'll get moved if the admins think its in the wrong place.

will have a look mary. ty