Problems at church - advice please

[Earlybird]

This is a 'what would you do in my shoes' plea for advice.

A few years ago I moved back to the city where I grew up, and began attending the church I had always gone to with my family.

The church had an interim minister (due to retirement of previous minister) when we returned. A few months later, they announced the appointment of a new permanent minister.

The new man is about my age (late 40's), and has never married (not entirely sure that is relevant, but some would say it is difficult to provide pastoral care/counselling if you've never had a spouse or children).

At the beginning of his tenure (18 months ago), everyone (including me) made a real effort to welcome him. I never had any meaningful interaction with him, but put it down to the fact that he had alot of people to meet in his new job. He also had an ill father to attend to (hence the reason he wanted to return to this city).

It is now apparent that for some reason he has a problem relating to women who are vaguely his generation (he is very good with the children and the old folks). He especially has a problem with me (perhaps because I too am single?), and it is so obvious that others have commented on it.

He will walk past and converse with dd, and only say hello to me as he walks away (no eye contact). I volunteer at various church events, and he will never greet me or ask how I am. We had a sudden/tragic death in the family last spring, and while he did come to the 'visitation' at the other church (in support of us as members), he has never since asked how dd or I are coping.

Prior to the sermon last week, I encountered him in the hallway and he spoke/joked with the person I was walking with, but did not greet me. Etc, etc, etc. I could go on. Suffice to say, it happens every time so can no longer be explained away.

I don't want to leave the church and my community there, but I cannot continue to feel so blatantly and rudely ignored by the man who is now in charge. At first his behaviour was odd, then puzzling, but now I leave church furious at being blanked. That is not what i want from my church experience, and from the man who is supposed to be offering his members (including me) spiritual guidance and pastoral care.

So, what would you do?

Personally I think I'd have to try and tackle him head on about it in some way or another. Could you arrange to go and see him and just state how you feel and how uncomfortable it makes you? Would it be easier writing it in a letter and then asking if he could give you some time to discuss it? Or could you invite him to Sunday lunch/tea one week and just try and get to know him a bit better in the hope that you start to discover how he ticks?? You don't think he's just shy, I presume, or could it be that he actually likes you a lot but doesn't know how to express himself?

Hi, I'm so sorry to hear you are unhappy. Do you have an elder/ pastoral support person in your church? If so, maybe you could ask them to have a quiet word with him. If that doesn't work or isn't possible perhaps you could make a point of talking to him or asking a question eveytime you see him, eventually he may start the conversations himself.

There is a similar minister at my parents church, though he doesn't talk to anyone! He finishes his services and walks out

The members of the church have now given up on conversation (he has been there more than 5 years!) and accept that the church has someone who leads services rather than a 'minister'. Don't give up on your church, though. A church is more than just a minister, its a family of people and your minister sounds a bit like the awkward cousin. If all else fails, roll you eyes and discuss your guidance and pastoral needs with someone else, its not ideal but they will still be able to help.

Have you mentioned this to any of the other female members of your church? is he the same with them? Could you band together with two or three other ladies and see what happens when there are two or three of you and just him? Is he speaking/joking with the others and not with you? Could one of the others in that case say "Hey vicar, what bout Earlybird?" and see what happens?
If you can't 'ambush' him in that way because he runs a mile from a clutter of women, you know it is not you and it might be easier to cope with.
I'd definitely make a joke of it with other 'girls' in your congregation and see if you can't bring him out of himself a bit.

Thanks for your thoughts and perspective.

I am not imagining it. As I said earlier, at first I made excuses for him (he's new, just a coincidence, no big deal, etc). He would respond if I made a real attempt to engage him in conversation, but never for any length of time, never any meaningful interaction and usually over his shoulder as he walked away.

After he had been at the church about a year, I finally asked a few church friends (women my/his age) about their interactions with him and found we all have experienced more or less the same treatment (they are all married). We laughingly came to the conclusion that he has issues with 'women of child bearing age'. But, now it is not funny.

I've given up making excuses for him (new, shy, busy, overwhelmed, distracted, etc), and have decided he is socially awkward with his female peers (at best), and/or simply rude (at worst). If I am standing alone, he will ignore me. If I am standing with other people, he will engage someone else in chat, and not acknowledge me. If i am volunteering at a church event (as i was yesterday), he will 'walk the room' greeting members, and say nothing to me. It has become so pronounced that several people have noticed and made comments.

Evidently he was engaged to be married a long time ago (at least 15 years ago, and possibly alot longer), and it ended badly. He has made a few passing comments about it being a difficult and painful time. No idea if he has had other romantic involvements since then, or if he simply avoids women (and especially single women) as much as possible.

It has become a complete distraction for me, and i feel angry about it. My church experience is almost completely skewed toward feeling alienated instead of uplifted/inspired etc.

Arrange with a friend that if the situation arises again that he greets her and not you she says:"May I introduce you to my friend Earlybird?" and see what happens.

If he mutters something incoherent and turns away friend could say something like:-"It hasn't gone unnoticed, vicar, that you are ignoring Earlybird. If there is a problem I think it would be sensible if you indicated what it is, so she can deal with it. Otherwise we will all think that you are just being rude."
Get the people who have noticed on side, tell them how hurtful you find his behaviour and let them help you in dealing with it.

Could he be attracted to you/be scared about being attracted to you and is therefore running a mile all the time?

Worried about people playing match maker etc?

Some men are intimidated by attractive women and really don't know how to talk to them; they're fine with children and the elderly as there's a role for them to fall into there and they feel non-threatened, but find the whole women 20-40 as a 'species' unfathomable. I have a cousin who is exactly like this.

Hi,
I too think that he may have some sort of crush on you - though impossible to say for definite without seeing the situation. Perhaps because of this he gets flustered when he speaks to you, so rather than make a fool of himself he avoids you or blanks you. He might be one of those awkward Batchelor sorts who just doesn't know how to handle his own feelings.
I agree with the previous posts that you could try to speak with him together with some similar aged ladies then you can suss out whether it is just you or whether his problem is more generalised. You could start a conversation about anything and see if he responds to you in the same way that he responds to them.
A tricky situation to be in. I agree with previous posts that if the situation is too uncomfortable and speaking to him head on about the issue isn't appropriate then you may have to think about finding another church.

Very difficult!
Hope it all works out well and I'm totally wrong!

Interesting to hear your thoughts and perspective.

Dd and I have been invited (by the church choir director) to light Advent candles and do a reading one Sunday in December. I feel torn about it, and haven't responded. Don't want to 'miss out' on celebrating the Christmas season in such a memorable way with dd, but also don't want to be a part of the service of the man who cannot be civil.

Am leaning toward doing it though, as the problem is his and not mine. I need/want to enjoy the experience rather than focusing on how unwelcoming he is.

It's childish not to do the reading or light the candle because you think the vicar doesn't like you. Really, it's not all about him or all about you, for that matter.

What would Jesus do?

When our vicar was suddenly widowed a few years ago, there were unattached women virtually throwing themselves at him. He had to put distance between them and him for his own sanity. He ended up with just a few close friends, which did seem cliquey, but understandable under the circumstances.

Oh definitely do the candle lighting. Build a life for yourself in the church apart from him.
As Certainage says, this is not about you or him, it is about Jesus, who was mighty unpopular in His day and put up with it for all our sakes.
Have a very happy Christmas.

My first instint was as cargirl, however that may be down to watching too many soaps. Perhaps he had a similar experience to the example certainage gave.

The truth is you will never know unless you speak to him about it. You need to decide if you can get past this or not. If not, then speak to him. I don't think embrassing either of you be getting someone else to say something will help.

You must do the lighting and reading, maybe speak to him and say you feel uncomfortable due to his behavoiur?

Thanks for your thoughts.

DD and I are taking part in the Advent service at church this morning.

I have also arranged a lunch with the new Associate Pastor to meet/spend time with me and several other women church members. Perhaps the new Associate Pastor will be the one who can relate to women that are not children or senior citizens!

Glad you've found some ways to progress, earlybird.

When I was 18 or so the minister we had in my family's church also had a problem with women aged between about 16 and 60. Thankfully I didn't come in for too much of it as I'd gone to university and was only home in the holidays, but my mother and younger sister found him unbearably rude and eventually left - my mother to 'defect' to the Anglicans and my sister never to set foot in church save the required attendance at Christmas. He used to talk to my father with my mother standing next to him and completely ignore her and many other women found the same thing.

I don't know how to phrase this the right way but you've obviously been landed with the task of bringing this behaviour to his attention and working on it and maybe you'll be able to do what my mother/sister/other women in our church couldn't. It really sounds as though it needs to be sorted and I'm sure that you will be able to do it sensitively and with good grace. God bless.

Hi Earlybird - what an awkward situation.

My immediate impression is that he's attracted to you/terrified of becoming attracted to you/ has heard a rumour that you're attracted to him/is worried about gossip.

In this day and age I would think single male ministers are treading on eggshells to avoid "misunderstandings" with female church members. It may well be he's learnt the hard way to keep a distance, and got too extreme about it. Churches can be vicious places sadly. My IL's have been in church leadership and unfortunately the congregation can put you on a pedestal and rip you down. As certainage said, often they find it hard to have real friends in the congregation BUT that's a long way from polite interaction!

Men are often bottled up emotionally and let's face it, (not all by any means) Christian men are sometimes pretty awkward/inexperienced with women.

If you have the face to corner him, insist on a word in private or with a trusted friend, and say, "I'm sure I have the wrong end of the stick, Bill, but from where I am I feel you are avoiding speaking to me and it actually seems rude to the point where I'm considering moving church. Now I realise you may feel the need to be cautious being a single man, but I can assure you I'm a grown up and do not have any hidden agenda on that front. Unless we have some awful personality clash I would very much like to be on conversational terms with you since we are all in this congregation together. Is there a particular problem or are you just being careful to avoid gossip? "

You never know there might be some completely different issue you don't know about that is causing the problem.

Sorry, more musings.

The other thing that comes to mind is that as an employee of the church, he is really not doing his job if refusing to/failing to provide support to a whole group of "clients". He could well be in need of a quiet word/training/counselling - presumably there is a group of people (church council,elders?) who appointed him and who he's accountable to, who could point him towards this. Or alternatively at the next level up in your denomination there is bound to be some sort of diversity/equal opportunities person.

Ultimately what everyone wants is for the chap to be effective in his ministry. It might be as simple as sending him discreetly on a gender awareness course or a few counselling sessions. Probably best done outside the congregation.

IMO single people can make very good ministers if they are insightful and empathetic, but like all of us best as part of a team where there is a balance of gifts and experience.

sorry just realised I was adding to an old thread. never mind i'm sure you are Ok now.