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Atheists and "comfort"

55 replies

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/08/2009 16:55

I'm just kind of musing here, so this may not be entirely coherent...

My mum has a Christian faith, and said that she found her beliefs "comforting" when my dad died - the thought that he's in a better place, and all that. To me, a non-believer, that's just about the only positive thing a faith can provide that non-faith can't. How can an atheist offer comfort to a bereaved believer? I suppose you could be glad that the departed was now free of pain (if s/he had suffered in dying) but what do you say when it was a sudden death, an accident, a child?

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 18/08/2009 09:54

Anyone whose faith is shaken when something bad happens to them must have been listening to a very different gospel to the one I've heard. I've never been taught that being a Christian means that I'll get what I want in life, or that my life will be easy, or comfortable.

I'm glad that people who have "picked up" religion assuming that it's a free ride have been startled out of that view, though of course I wouldn't wish bereavement or ill health etc on anyone however smug. But it's right that they should reconsider what it is that they actually believe - and if it's "I'll have a cushy life if I go to church", then that is definitely in the "make believe" category.

Genuine faith isn't about easy answers and smug platitudes, it's about struggling with difficult questions and wondering how to make sense of the world, just like any other genuine view of the world needs those things, whether you do it with or without a religious faith.

ABetaDad · 18/08/2009 09:55

porcupine11 - as a scientist who beleives in a 'god figure' I do like the sound of the atoms thing too.

I also tell my DSs that our 'soul' in the form of what other people remember of us, our impact on other people's lives we have touched, our impact in the planet, and also very much wat we have instilled in our children as well as our genes is how we 'live on'. They find that a comforting thought when they ask about death and what happens afterwards.

Habbibu · 18/08/2009 10:20

ABetaDad - sounds a bit like the Viking belief that your "soul" survived so long as you were remembered in story and song.

I remember finding "comfort" from religious friends and family very hard to take when dd1 died - lots of talk of her "being in a better place" and "being an angel now", and praying for us I found disquieting, although I understood it came with the best of intentions. I was outraged at the world in general, though.

I've also found Phillip Pullman's description of Dust recurring in my thoughts since losing dd1 - it's more of a comfort, and I like to imagine her atoms free in the world, and her memory changing the lives and personalities of her parents.

bloss · 18/08/2009 10:49

Message withdrawn

sfxmum · 18/08/2009 10:58

to the OP

I have been bereaved quite early on when my mother died of cancer I had just turned 15, back then I was already deep in doubt about Catholicism in particular and belief in god

I can honestly say that the attempts to comfort us with tales of a beyond and a better place all seemed hollow and pro forma I do recall those people who actually offered practical help and support over the following difficult years

comfort in the form of being there for them when they need it to offer a quiet shoulder to cry on, or an hear or company or solitude when needed

I really think it is best to always to our best to love and cherish when people are alive
I don't think any amount of words can ever take away the pain of a close loss be it a parent partner and most of all of a child, it is all part of life I suppose people try and make sense of a loss and put it in a sort of context but really does it hurt any less?

sorry for the long post

porcupine11 · 18/08/2009 11:24

Do people really pick up faith looking 'for a free ride' - isn't it more that they get brainwashed at a time they are vulnerable (by parents as they are growing up, or later by peers in these culty alpha meetings). At least when they admit they are having second thoughts about it, they are showing some rational thinking again. IMO it must make it even harder to come to terms with bereavement if you feel a god figure has personally sought you out to inflict misery. As an atheist, you know it is all down to nature and the fact that no higher power is looking out for us and keeping us going any more than it's looking out for the frogs and mosquito larvae in my garden.

AMumInScotland · 18/08/2009 11:37

Well, I think anyone who lets themself be convinced by someone that having religion means "God will look after you and make everything work out just fine" is a mug. But yes, they might believe it because other mugs have convinced them. But most people who come into a faith - whether they grew up in it or came to it later - reach a point where they stop being spoonfed with easy answers and look more deeply at what it means. For some, that becomes a "crisis of faith" and they throw out the whole idea. But for many, it means they actually start being adult believers and think through the complicated bits.

Greensleeves · 18/08/2009 11:38

or they might look more deeply into the complicated bits and become adult atheists

Habbibu · 18/08/2009 11:41

Actually, yes, bloss, I agree - there are things that I found comforting myself, but i don't think I'd have appreciated from anyone else. BUT some people do like hearing "words of comfort", so I guess you just have to play it by ear, and only offer such words if you're pretty damn sure they're wanted. Which is very difficult!

bloss · 18/08/2009 11:42

Message withdrawn

AMumInScotland · 18/08/2009 11:42

Indeed! I don't mind what conclusion people reach, but I do want them to think about it!

Habbibu · 18/08/2009 11:42

But I also never wanted casseroles!

sayanything · 18/08/2009 11:47

I always thought that "heaven" and "hell" are how people remember the person who died. So a person is in atheist "heaven" if the people around him/her remember him/her fondly, miss them, celebrate their moments together. That's what comforted me when my grandmother died, that she had been dearly loved by all of us and that we would always remember her with love and fondness.

AMumInScotland · 18/08/2009 11:48

I think only very self-obsessed people live their life believing that God has singled them out either to smite them with something hideous, or to keep them so safe from harm that they never so much as stub their toe. Most believers work on the principle that the things that happen to them are mainly "collateral damage" from far bigger events and/or the randomness of life in general.

The "comfort" which faith gives is more about not being completely alone in dealing with the stuff that happens, and/or it being tiny parts of a bigger purpose, and/or there being something to look forward to after the troubles of this life.

It's not about being the centre of God's attention for good or ill, or having a force-field which stops you being subject to all the stuff which affects everyone.

IsItMeOr · 18/08/2009 12:00

I think Chimchar makes a lot of sense. Action is probably the most comforting thing, rather than telling people your beliefs.

Sorry if this point has already been made, but (some) atheists can respect other people's beliefs as genuine even if they don't agree with them, so I have been known to say to people (not in death context, but in time of unhappiness) something like, "well I know you believe x, which maybe means that y" by way of trying to help them make sense of their situation in a context that they believe in. A specific example would be of a very poor person who always gave 10% of their meagre salary to the church therefore couldn't afford much needed counselling, so iirc I asked them whether they thought their god would want them to be happy/help themselves.

porcupine11 · 18/08/2009 12:10

I don't know many very religious people, I think I'm too atheist for us to get on, but my example was based on two of my sisters' friends who are/were very devoted Christians in their 20s. One is having such a rough time at the moment, that she has definitely talked to my sister about why her god has singled her out for a miserable life, and how let down she feels by 'him'.

The other doesn't understand why, when she has been waiting until marriage to sleep with her fiance, her god has allowed him to break up with her, shattering her dreams. So that really is from the horse's mouth, bloss, and it's that fervent belief that I think does so much harm. Both are putting their lives on abolute hold, in the belief that 'god' will come through for them eventually. The 'only at Christmas and when it suits them to talk about heaven' Christians are a different matter, if a bit hypocritical for my liking.

bloss · 18/08/2009 14:53

Message withdrawn

porcupine11 · 18/08/2009 18:29

I don't think the biblical story and the word logical belong in the same paragraph, but there you go.

bloss · 19/08/2009 05:23

Message withdrawn

porcupine11 · 19/08/2009 07:58

I'm disappointed to see Christians entering a clearly-labelled atheist thread, to be honest. I don't hang around on Christian threads forcing my opposite views on the posters. This was a good topic that was highly relevant to me as an atheist who had been bereaved. You know nothing about atheism and how to offer comfort as an atheist, so what are you doing here? And why, on an atheist thread, do you expect me to treat religion with anything but disdain? I'm an ATHEIST for crying out loud! I think religion is total and utter nonsense and that is my BELIEF!

bloss · 19/08/2009 08:32

Message withdrawn

porcupine11 · 19/08/2009 08:36

Oh excuse me, I mistook your 'wonderful to see' as sarcasm, I didn't realise you really were congratulating me on my clear head and open mind. How Christian of you.

bloss · 19/08/2009 08:40

Message withdrawn

AMumInScotland · 19/08/2009 09:30

Porcupine - the OP asked "How can an atheist offer comfort to a bereaved believer?" - doesn't mean that this thread wants to see how the attitudes and assumptions of both atheists and believers can interact when someone is bereaved? If it was "how can atheists comfort each other" then fair enough, the views of believers would not have any relevance, and I for one would have stayed out, or only given opinions based on general counselling etc and not from a faith point of view.

But it's important that both sides here have enough understanding and respect for each other's views to hopefully say "the right thing" more often and "the wrong thing" less often when tryign to comfort someone who has been bereaved. We don't have to agree, but if we can see where each other are coming from, and why some statements might be hurtful, then it's got to be a good thing, right?

TheDMOfficeIsFullOfImmigrants · 19/08/2009 22:05

AMIS: "Anyone whose faith is shaken when something bad happens to them must have been listening to a very different gospel to the one I've heard. I've never been taught that being a Christian means that I'll get what I want in life, or that my life will be easy, or comfortable". - I second that, as well as bloss's very thoughtful comments earlier about the same subject.

I also love the 'atoms' description from porcupine.

OLKN (you clearly don't know 'nothing' - I've said this to you before - I'm MrsMH in anti-DM disguise), it's sad that your sister has such a rigid view of faith but I hope that she is on a journey of faith as I am - meaning that when I was much younger I was equally inflexible because that's what I was taught. As I've grown I've become much more open-minded.

OLKN, I was thinking of you this evening as there was a fascinating R4 programme on exactly this subject - can't recall what it's called but it was on at 8pm and it featured a CofE liberal bishop (Richard Harries) and an atheist (not sure of her background, but her name is Dr Miranda something which I've forgotten!). It was about suffering and how religion and atheism handle it. I hope you find it as thought-provoking as I did.

Porcupine - what a bizarre statement you make about Christians' presence on this thread. I have seen again and again on MN threads that when people of faith start a discussion, atheists join in - and why shouldn't they? I have often seen atheists join religious threads only to attack religion itself, which hasn't been the case on this thread. This is an open forum for anyone to contribute.

I agree with the statements that the 'he's in a better place' stuff is hollow - I've always felt that, and I've always had a faith. But I think that's because of how it's said and the hollow belief behind the saying - it's generally said in an unconvincing way as a sort of verbal pat on the back or stroking of lucky rabbit's foot, rather than as a meaningful statement of something the speaker understands deeply. That's why it comes across as an empty platitude. It's not unlike when something crap happens and people say 'bad things happen in threes' or 'it's for the best' - I always ask myself why that person chose to open their mouths to utter nonsense that they haven't even thought about, rather than sympathising silently, which would be far better. Or with cake (better than casseroles IMO ).