Christians - what do you understand by 'born again'?

[KayHarkerInTheBackOfTheQuattro]

I've just been reading something in one of Jehovah's Witnesses magazines which I agreed with half of, and then massively disagreed with the other half.

Got me pondering on the different ways Christians of all flavours understand that phrase. I don't really use it very much myself any way, but what do you understand by it in your faith?

It's not a phrase I use very often, but I'd assume people meant they had an awareness of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and that they considered themself a "new person" since that had happened (whether it was something they experienced as a one-off or an ongoing thing).

But tbh if someone described themself as "a born-again Christian" I'd assume they were very happy-clappy, probably charismatic evangelicals, and that I'd almost certainly be getting into an argument with them very soon if we tried to discuss almost anything apart from the weather

Yes, 'born-again Christian' has very definite connotations.

It was very specifically the 'theological' term 'born again' I meant, really, which was what this article was referencing. I should think a lot of the more liberal stream of things would go with your understaning, AMIS.

What do the JW's make of it? I don't know much about their theology.

I suspect liberals mean anything from a full-blown religious experience of the HS to a vague feeling of the "first day of the rest of your life" sort of decision to define themself as a Christian.

I stand to be corrected, and I apologise if I phrase this badly, but I think a Jehovah Witness believer has a very different take and follow very different customs to conventional Christian beliefs ..

Saying that, in answer to your question, I agree with AMIS's viewpoint.

Oh yes, Jehovah's witnesses are quite distinctively different on some issues.

Well, the article laid out the biblical usage, which I agreed with - in that being 'born again' wasn't a 'decision' that you make - it's something that comes directly from God.

This is absolutely the essence of my understanding of Grace, biblically speaking - it's a gift requiring no box-ticking on our part.

They defined being 'born again' as being adopted as children of God. Again, no disagreement about that.

But then they said it was only for a small group of people, which left me completely 'huh?' really, because that rather means that grace is limited and it all got very confuddling and it appears the hope laid out isn't being with God as His child, but just an eternity on a perfect earth as long as I'm good, which left me feeling a bit flat, really.

This isn't meant to be an attack on the Witnesses, btw - it just wasn't something I had come across before and it got me wondering how everyone else understood the bible's teaching on it.

AMIS, you're quite right.. a liberal understanding is just that, of course

So, is their position that most people, even JWs, are not born again, then? And therefore not going to end up with God when it all happens (whatever exactly happens)?

That's definitely not my understanding of theology - grace is there, freely available to all. It's a never-ending plate of free cookies - God says "do you want one?", no strings attached, no limit on the numbers.

And whoever is in the right relationship with God when it all kicks off will get a place in the new creation, where they will "see God face to face".

AMIS, well, I think the way they would understand it is the eternal lovely earth is the plate of cookies. But personally, yes, the 'face to face' and knowing as we are known is very much how I understand it too. If I believed I wasn't a child of God and would never see Him, I think I might just cry and cry.

I know we have Witnesses on MN, so I'm quite happy to have any misconceptions adjusted, naturally.

I have no idea about JW's but in my Church (CofE) if you are baptised you are born again so this is what I've always taken it to mean. In baptism you're old self 'dies' and is 'reborn'. It's somewhere in the baptism service.

The way I understand it about the JW's is that the small group of people you speak of is them - think it's 144,000 (might be a wrong number though)

Laurie, no, it's not just Witnesses - they make it quite clear that they're all looking forward to the perfect earth thing, and the people who are God's children will be the rulers of them, I think.

That's definitely not how I understood it, I wonder if that's a reinterpretation on their behalf (not yours).

I seem to remember that there was supposed to be 44,000 who would go to the new earth but when their supporters got above that figure in the 1970's they said they were reinterpreting it as a larger figure (which I thought was 144,000)

I'm certainly expecting the "face to face" part of it, and that's from theology from both a liberal catholic start, and an evangelical college, so I think it's throughout "mainstream" Christianity.

But at the same time there's the concept of the old earth passing away and there being a new creation, where we will be - so it's not exactly "heaven", but a new version of "earth", which I suppose fits in with the JW idea. But I'm expecting Jesus and all the apostles etc to be there, and God to be there in a way which is much more "face to face" than anything we can glimpse now.

I don't think I'd go for the idea that we just swap an imperfect earth for a perect earth, with God as unknowable as now, I don't think I'd see that as something I'd want to spend my life aiming for!

Revelation specifically mentions 144,000. There are about 7 million JWs worldwide and so the number has never been changed just to accommodate the growing number.

JWs believe that 144,000 will go to heaven to rule with Christ over humans on earth in paradise as was God's original purpose.

oh great, someone who actually knows

What's special about the 144,000 that sets them apart from other Christians?

Well, yes, I'm expecting a physical new creation - but somehow mixed with the spiritual in a way we can't fully get our heads around in this present world.

Laurie, hold on Yup, the rulers number 144,000, you're right.

But that's not for everyone - the others are on earth. Not sure how you know where you're going, tbh.

ah, x-post with the someone who actually knows, lol.

Message withdrawn

bloss, ah yes, but it's not 'the best' - the article makes clear it's nothing to do with them they're chosen apart from what they do.

BTW< yes, I like the 'clean slate' thing.

Theologically, I think 'born again' is a way of expressing the beginning of the new you - a person capable of having the relationship with God that we were always intended to have and therefore capable of living in his new heavens and new earth as one of his children. A person who has the correct sort of lungs for the air of heaven, if you want to be fanciful.

It is not a just a metaphor but a spiritual reality - when I became a Christian, a new person (the real me) started at that moment, someone who is only intermittently visible to others now but will be completely visible to everyone in the new creation.

I often doubt this person exists but I am encouraged by Philippians 1:6 - 'He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus'. It's a relief to think that God is not a dodgy builder who turns out, knocks the heck out of the place and then downs tools and never finishes the job.

I almost never use the phrase 'born again' because it means what AMIS and bloss said to most people and that is a really unhelpful and inaccurate idea to put in other people's minds.

I don't think that 'born again' is a bad word at all, as Jesus Christ, God in the flesh said it to Nicodemus a Pharasee of the Jewish religion. To be a believer in Jesus you must be born of the spirit, this is ALWAYS proceeded by repentance, and accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as your payment for the sins that you have committed.

Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except through me'. Part of that coming unto the father is by being born again of the spirit.

It is very evangelical. It always makes me cringe.

All Christians are born-again - they have died to old self and risen to new life in Christ.

The truth often makes people cringe.

Evangelical-bashing makes me cringe.