Tony Blair questioning the Infallability of the Pope?

[BetsyBoop]

Just been reading this news item where Tony Blair questions the Papal gay policy.

I'm an Anglican, but to me this seems a bit of a cheek. No one forced him to convert to RC, but surely if you do you have, to sign on the dotted line for what the "rules" are. You can't say "well I don't mind this bit & this bit, but I think you ought to change this bit"

Aren't the 'fantastic things' the Pope stands for, the same things St Peter stood for?

I disagree, BB, and ilovemydogandMrObama. I think there's a strong argument that people within the RC community should push for evolution and change. I rather respect him for joining and then voicing a desire for a more progressive stance.

And change does take place; I may be wrong, but isn't papal infallibility a fairly recent invention?

I just dont understand what his motives are in this.

As a recent convert, I doubt he will be taken very seriously, at least not in "papal quarters".

Still laughing at the idea of a man being infallable after all even Jesus has doubts and a bit of a temper.

I was told by a Catholic (I am not one myself, so I could be wrong) that Catholics are not required to believe in papal infallibility in general, but only when he makes statements ex cathedra, which has only happened a few times. So going by this, then Tony Blair can question the papal stance on homosexuality all he likes, as no ex cathedra statement has been made regarding the issue and therefore Catholics are not required to believe he is infallible on this point.

Quite right, the Pope is not infallable, he may make pronouncements ex cathedra in which case the statement, rather than the man, is speaking infallably. i think it's a fairly recent thing, like 1st Vat council, to regularise the 'heirarchy' of teaching. As far as I can recall,it's only ever been used to teach about the Assumption, but I might be wrong. Certainly it has hardly ever been used, infallibility, and what it actually means is horribly misunderstood imo! I am wholeheartedly Roman Catholic, but believe it my duty to vocalise loyal dissent when I feel teaching is at odds with my conscience. This is entirely legitimate, and totally necessary, I believe, I am the Church just as much as the next person

APM - wasn't aware of that (as an Anglican myself), this entry on wiki explains it quite well

So if I've read it properly it's saying that these days it's normally done via the papal office rather than the Pope himself.

FFC - exactly! one of many reasons why I could never be a RC

So this one isn't a Papal infallibity one by the sound of it, but it's still very clear and well known RC doctrine (along with their stance on contraception, abortion, divorce, women priests etc) so it still seems very odd to me that you convert to something & then set about trying to change it

QS - like you say though, I doubt anyone in the Vatican will be taking any notice

Yes, I agree that the Catholic Church needs to review its policies, but Tony Blair says that Pope Benedict stands for 'fantastic things.' Not sure what differentiates Pope Benedict from other Popes as he seems quite conservative.

But does the Pope accept the infallibility of Tony Blair, that's the important question.

Harumph.

As a practising catholic, I don't agree with homophobia (and the church is not homophobic, per se) but I do agree with the teaching that sex outside of marriage is wrong and that marriage is reserved for a man and a woman, therefore that homosexual acts are a sin - the same sin committed by anyone who has sex outside of marriage.

However, a life of celibacy is a hard road for anyone to walk, whether they're gay or straight and I would sympathise with anyone in that position who was struggling with it.

TB can "campaign" all he likes, but I don't see it cvhanging any time soon.

Im a practising Catholic and disagree with the Papal gay policy along with its stance on contraception amongst others.
The position of the Church does change/evolve and so should it.
Clergy were not alway required to be celibate and not all are now. Our priest is a convert - married with a family
When I was taught by a Jesuit - he told us that a Catholic should be a thinking Catholic and guided by our conscience ultimately. By studing the New Testament he showed us Jesus did not mention much about sexuality at all rather the key texts are about compassion and love ... did you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisonners. THis forms the basis of the social justice teachings of the Catholic church [ and Im sure other faiths] which we are obliged to follow [ clearly laid out in Vatican 2]
Better examine my own conscience

"When I was taught by a Jesuit - he told us that a Catholic should be a thinking Catholic and guided by our conscience ultimately."

I went to a convent school and was taught by nuns who said the same thing - you shouldn't just follow your faith blindly, but should think about it and examine it on a regular basis. There are aspects of church teaching with which I struggle but the one thing that I truly like about catholicism is the social justice policy you mention - a very good foundation for a faith.

I'm surprised the Pope hasn't seen fit to ex-communicate him!

The Pope isn't infallible - nor is the Catholic church. I agree with their gay views (although their priests have a high % of them with their marriage rules) the Bible forbids homosexuality there's no getting away from that no matter how you look at passages.

Jesus did not mention homosexuality - he did say to the Pharisees when condemning the woman caught in adultery - let those who are without sin cast the first stone.

Didn't you know? TB is greater than the Pope; God speaks directly to him.

Can you tell I'm not a fan. Jumped up little squirt.

No Jesus didn't mention homosexuality - however, 1 Corinthians 5 states the consequences of sexual immorality (certainly not just homosexuality). 1 Corinthians 6:9 speaks of it specifically.

As I said - regardless of how you try to interpret it, there's no getting away from it, try as you might.

For the record - I'm not a homosexual hater; I just hate the sin - as any other.

That's interesting about clergy. I didn't realize that vicars (assume it was a former vicar) were able to be priests -- obviously they can convert.

My Catholic history fails me at the moment, but wasn't the infallibility of the Pope brought in for the purposes of internal Church matters rather than philosophical reasons?

jcscot - exactly right about teaching. The Church does not ban homosexuality. How can you ban something that people feel is an inbuilt part of them? For the reasons you have explained, homosexual acts are seen as sin just as adultery is.

In terms of Papal Infalliability, the Pope is not infalliable. It is certain "ex cathedra" statements that are declared infalliable, as someone else has explained. The current Pope has never made an infalliable statement.

The Church does and should evolve but without compromising it's basic foundations that go back to the time of the apostles. I may not agree with Tony Blair on this issue but I think it is important for us all to challenge our beliefs rather than say I must believe x because my priest/church tell me to. I am also an RC convert from being actively CofE. My main reason for converting was because I felt - for me - closer to God as an RC and anything that helps me further my personal relationship with God has to be a good thing. There were plenty of church teachings I had to get my head round but my faith comes from God via the church and not the other way around.

Aah reminds me of that old joke...

Psychotherapist dies and reaches the pearly gates. He hasn't been a good person all his life so he begs St. Peter "please can I come in?"

St Peter says: "Occupation?"

"Psychotherapist"

"Oh well why didn't you say, come in, come in, we need you here!"

"Why, are you depressed?" says the man, "can I help?"

"No, not me," says St Peter, "it's God. He thinks he's Tony Blair."

I like Archbishop Nichols response
"I think I will take my guide from Pope Benedict"!!