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Philosophy/religion

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How accurate is the New Testament?

194 replies

Pinkfluffyslippers · 22/03/2009 21:42

I have this problem with the New Testament - so much of it was written ages after the events they describe how accurate is it and how can we believe it? For instance the Gospels differ and don't all mention the same events. (This is before we even start discussing the differences between the translations of the Bible)
Who decided which Gospels to include? I know some were excluded>
Who was the editor ? Was it Paul?
Forgive me for sounding slightly blasphemous but if God wanted to get his message across don't you think he would have sorted this out and given his message to one person. (EG: As with Islam - Allah speaking to Muhammed). I often wonder if the New Testament isn't susceptible to the problems of Chinese whispers.

I do hope someone could answer these questions.

OP posts:
justaboutback · 08/04/2009 19:46

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bloss · 08/04/2009 20:01

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nezelette · 08/04/2009 20:12

Well, the OT is mainly based on mitzvot / commandments that must be obeyed (obviously I'm simplifying a little ) and human beings' job is to follow them as rigourously as possible (hence orthodow jews' enthusiam for specific regulations I guess). It's made very clear from the start (Genesis, the Fall...). Obedience is good (Abraham/Isaac incident). So being good = being obedient. It's not so much about understanding the rules but applying them. God is good, God knows what is right, so if you follow him you can't go wrong.
That's all very absolute because there are no exceptions (10 commandments are not meant to be flexible). I would call that absolute ethics, even deontological ethics (based on duty and laws)(Kant...)

The NT introduces a much more flexible approach. Jesus is allowing people to make their own decisions based on their conscience and the most loving course of action in a given situation (later rebranded Situation Ethics by Joseph Fletcher). Jesus is willing to bend the rules (i.e. healing on the Sabath) for love's sake (sorry, sounds corny! I mean general love of your neighbour, obviously!) Intentions and individual conscience replace blind obedience. In other words, Jesus allows people to consider specific circumstances and apply their judgement, while always following the general rule of love / selflessness etc. That's typical of relative morality.

Sorry if I oversimplified in order to make OT / NT clash more conveniently for my point !!

What I love about it is that humanity grows: at first, people are treated like babies (don't eat that fruit or I'll kill you) and they grow little by little until they are allowed to make their own decisions (throw the first stone IF...). What a cracking development!

nezelette · 08/04/2009 20:13

that was for justabout btw

nezelette · 08/04/2009 20:38

bloss

I guess I would feel much more comfortable with someone who claimed to believe some things about God rather than know them. But I guess if you have experienced God on a personal level you might have you own sort of "knowledge" - unsharable, unprovable knowlegde.

You once again make the extraordinary claim that "it is far, far easier to be sure of your fate if you have accepted Jesus as your saviour". Brilliant. I don't even have to criticise this as it's kind of self-destructive.

I think it's very different to accept some historical facts and to accept the gospels as historically true: they were written by early Christians, aren't they? Do you really think they were unbiased? The non-christian sources merely prove that Jesus existed, which I would never dispute. But there is no firm evidence that he was the son of god, so that is down to belief, not knowledge in the traditional sense of the word.

Finally, your descritpion of relative morality is caricatural and misleading. Jesus was not a "relativist" as in anything-goes, Daily-Mail-scary-type-relativism, but he certainly would have agreed with someone like Fletcher: the situation IS relevant (you CAN break the rule of respecting the Sabath IF someone needs help and helping them involved some type of work, for instance), the circumstances MUST be taken into account so that you can understand each individual's situation and apply love . forgiveness etc.

I do agree with you that Jesus was very strict on divorce and adultery. I'm not angry, you are very knowledgeable and it's nice being enlightened on some points!
Thanks for the compliment about my English!

justaboutback · 08/04/2009 20:43

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bloss · 09/04/2009 14:32

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nezelette · 09/04/2009 18:06

Well, I'm sorry if I conveyed the wrong idea. Of course, obedience is important in the NT, and submission to God. But, in a way, that reinforces my point. Submission to God is submission to love, and that is much more present in the NT. Therefore, the right thing to do is the most loving course of action in a given situation. Relative ethics does not entail absence of rules, but a certain flexibility. The overriding rule is love thy neighbour (and your God, obviously, but if God IS love then the two ideas are pretty close), and therefore any rule that temporarily contradicts that rule must be bent. You look at each situation to make your mind up, therefore it is relative. It doesn't mean you do what you want and follow no principle.
I agree that there are examples of more relative approaches in the OT, but the overall idea is a fairly deontological approach.
I never said the NT wasn't about obedience, it's just slightly different principles that must be obeyed, and more individual thinking and weighing up of the circumstances are required.
Anyway, I think we are highjacking this thread. Sorry PinkFluffySlippers!

onagar · 09/04/2009 19:41

Hi Bloss and everyone. What a lot of new posts! I'm rushing a bit so will read the rest carefully later.

You and I may have a theoretical interest in the fate of those who never hear the story about Jesus, but we don't need to hear the answer in order to make our own decision.>>

Well we would in the sense that you wouldn't trust someone who previously treated others badly. I think it's vitally important if all those not exposed to the bible are damned.

You are not really disagreeing with me on the 'true' or 'unimportant' point if you are saying it's true on every significant point. Presumably in your view if someone takes every word as literally true they will not be misled (except on details of the scenery)

Many of the christians who post on here claim that much of it is metaphor, misunderstanding by the writer, mistakes in translation, and generally not meant to be taken seriously. If you have to guess which bits are correct it can't be an instruction book. Whenever I point to a bit that seems to be significant and immoral/inconsistent I get told that's one of the bits not to take seriously.

onagar · 09/04/2009 19:42

This is a joke, but I think of it as a parable

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"
"Religious."
"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"
"Christian."
"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of
God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed
Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"
To which I said, "Die, you heretic scumbag!" and pushed him off.

bloss · 09/04/2009 20:07

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bloss · 09/04/2009 20:18

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onagar · 10/04/2009 21:38

Fair enough

I don't actually think Hitlers government was a valid continuation and nor is mormonism. One reason I often use mormonism as an example is that I think it was a pretty transparent attempt to grab the power of a previously existing group. Mormon priests will tell you they are the latest in a line that goes back nearly two thousand years with all the authority that implies.

It's a good trick isn't it. Grab the banner from the guy in front of the crowd and run ahead shouting 'follow me'

Just starting a new religion from scratch is harder.

Now I think some of the people who have started an off shoot of a religion may have believed it themselves, but some (Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard etc) knew just what they were doing.

Of course not all prophets/leaders who start an off-shoot need to be evil or misguided as there is a third possibility (4 if you count god telling them to do it)

Suppose nearly 2,000 years ago the son of a carpenter thought "our religion and culture is so harsh and unforgiving. If only I could talk people into being a bit nicer to one another life might be better. I could pretend god told me it was ok. It'd be justified as it would be in a good cause"

bloss · 10/04/2009 22:36

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justaboutback · 11/04/2009 07:31

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nezelette · 11/04/2009 08:13

Yes, these scenario are all possible.
I often wonder what Jesus would say if he came back today and saw the impact he's had on humanity, and the way his message has been interpreted...
Suppose he never meant to start a "new religion" (which is quite likely), what would he think about it all?
I think, whoever he was, he definitely believed in himself, as bloss pointed out re. sacrifice of himself + friends.

isenhart7 · 13/04/2009 15:50

I went to a lecture by Dr. Shaia, a Jesuit Priest, last month. He has written books and lectures on the topic of the gospels being both accurate and timely in their message. He believes that the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John-in that order-were chosen by the scholars of Nicaea for a specific reason.

www.quadratos.com/

Lucia39 · 13/04/2009 16:25

"Firstly, the quality of the historical evidence for Jesus is higher than for any other ancient figure. We have WAY more access to a variety of sources about his life than we do for, say, Julius Caesar. But there is absolutely no doubt about Caesar's existence."

Point of information. That is a complete nonsense. For Caesar we have coins, epigraphy, other people's writings, monuments, inscriptions, and of course his own writing [see The Gallic Wars].

Most scholars accept that such a person as Jesus of Nazareth did exist, given the socio-political situation in first century Judaea. However, there is no contemporary evidence to support his existence.

"It is just unsound to argue that the man is some kind of legend like King Arthur. No respectable historian argues that - whether they are believers or not. It puts you completely outside the mainstream academic history community to argue that way about Jesus - which is completely different from being a Christian, of course!"

You need to distinguish between the flesh and blood first century Jewish holy man and the figure presented in Pauline Christology. The two are completely separate.

The writers of the four gospels were not disciples the names are psuedonymous and were added later. The earliest gospel is that of Mark written around 70CE probably for a Roman christian community. There is no evidence that 'Q' exists it is a hypothetical document named from the German Quelle [source]. The earliest exact reference to the NT canon as it exists today is by Athanasius in his Festal Letter of 367CE.

Finally, I'd hardly call the discrepancies between the four gospel accounts "tiny". They contradict each other on some major points.

Lucia39 · 13/04/2009 18:14

Interesting point raised by justaboutback. We know from the gospels that people at the time thought he was mad (see Mark 3 v:21).

It should also be remembered that Jesus didn't die for his friends - he was executed for sedition against Roman authority. He was asked to explain himself - he remained silent (Mark 15 v:4-5) and so was sent for execution. It really was that simple for a person of his background under Roman law.

All the rest about Passover amnesties is a Christian invention which has to be viewed in the context of when the first gospel (Mark) was written.

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