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Original poster

How accurate is the New Testament?

194 replies

Pinkfluffyslippers · 22/03/2009 21:42

I have this problem with the New Testament - so much of it was written ages after the events they describe how accurate is it and how can we believe it? For instance the Gospels differ and don't all mention the same events. (This is before we even start discussing the differences between the translations of the Bible)
Who decided which Gospels to include? I know some were excluded>
Who was the editor ? Was it Paul?
Forgive me for sounding slightly blasphemous but if God wanted to get his message across don't you think he would have sorted this out and given his message to one person. (EG: As with Islam - Allah speaking to Muhammed). I often wonder if the New Testament isn't susceptible to the problems of Chinese whispers.

I do hope someone could answer these questions.

OP posts:
bloss · 28/03/2009 18:36

Message withdrawn

alexpolismum · 28/03/2009 19:44

bloss - perhaps you can enlighten me then - I always had the impression that the 10 commandments were superceded for Christians by the one commandment of their own - love your neighbour as yourself. I thought that this replaced the 10 commandments for Christians and that they were therefore no longer central. (the logic being, as one Christian told me, that if you love your neighbour, you won't do any of those things to him anyway. It all sounded a bit simplistic to me, to be honest, however nice the ideal).

bloss · 28/03/2009 19:54

Message withdrawn

alexpolismum · 28/03/2009 20:06

Thankyou bloss, that was interesting. Strange how most people don't mention the first part, it sounds like a core part of Christianity.

Is this something that all Christians agree on? Or do different denominations interpret it differently?

ipanemagirl · 28/03/2009 20:09

look here for a summary

but in brief

'Truth' means different things to different people, Christianity for most Christians is and was a leap of faith.

'Written' isn't thw whole point, many religions 'truths' are passed down via oral tradition as has been a lot of history over the centuries.

The gospels are an extraordinary and 2 thousand year old phenomenon, they are not easy to understand or sum up in a simple way. People who've studied them for their whole lives are still awed by the mystery they represent.

onagar · 28/03/2009 20:35

What mystery would that be? If you believe in god it's just the simple truth and if you don't it's a story someone made up.

alexpolismum · 28/03/2009 20:46

Onagar - I don't entirely agree. While I don't believe in Christianity, I don't see the bible as just a story someone made up. It is an important historical document that has helped to shape the history of Western civilisation. I think it is disingenuous to just dismiss it in that way.

AMumInScotland · 29/03/2009 20:10

When I said that it was not rules-based, I did indeed mean that Jesus came to fulfil the requirements of the law, and to sum up the commandments in the two as given by Bloss. Christianity is based on being in a good relationship with God and with other people - in the same way that a book on how to have a good marriage may list rules which are a good idea within an effective loving relationship, the 10 Commandments are still relevant. But the rules are based on loving God and loving your neighbour as yourself - if you could follow the rules without love that would not be enough. Having love but failing to follow the "rulea" is enough, if you are sorry for falling short.

I don't think the choices are either it's the simple truth or it's made up - there's a huge breadth of opinion both within Christianity and outside of it that makes it much more then 2 choices. Many people agree that at least the majority of the events in the New Testament did happen, and/or that the teachings of Jesus are a good way to live your life, even if you don't believe he was God incarnate.

alexpolismum · 29/03/2009 20:54

AMumInScotland - Regarding your second paragraph, I do think that Jesus had some good advice and teachings. However, there are many details that seem impractical to me, such as the 'turn the other cheek' ideal, and of course I cannot believe he was God incarnate and to be honest I find the whole concept of God needing to make a sacrifice for us quite bizarre.

AMumInScotland · 29/03/2009 21:07

Some people manage to consider themselves Christians without believing that Jesus was God Incarnate, but personally I think that's probably taking the definition too far (Though I know there's some on here who reckon I shouldn't call myself one either ). But I think you can still take something from the teachings, and obviously it's there in the background to our laws and attitudes in this country so a lot of it is likely to look like good sense even without the "religious" side.

The idea that God had to make a sacrifice is one that I have problems with too - I'm happy to believe that humanity were distant from God, and that the Old Testament religion wasn't working, so God had to do something new and different in order to connect with us, so became incarnate. But why his death was necessary for the process I don't know - perhaps it just had to be a temporary incarnation for some reason.

As to the "turn the other cheek" etc - well, the people of Israel at this point were living under occupation, and some of the teachings (like this and the "if someone takes your coat, give him your jacket too" one) can be argued in terms of "don't get into a fight with the occupying forces" and underly the idea that Jesus was there to make a change to their lives, not to start a revolt against the occupation, which many people were looking for.

alexpolismum · 29/03/2009 21:51

That's an interesting take on the 'turn the other cheek'. No one has ever put it into a historical context for me before. How does that equate with the universality of the religion?

Regarding the sacrifice, it's not only that there was a death, but a particularly horrible, excruciatingly painful death. Jesus didn't just die of old age! I really can't see why God needed that. It seems as though God was making a particularly horrific sacrifice to himself.

onagar · 29/03/2009 23:41

Alexpolismum, when I said 'made up' I was oversimplifying a bit. Some of it could be true. It's entirely possible that Ruth did get helped out foodwise by the landowner who fancied her for example

What I meant was that the essential parts about god existing and creating the world are surely not a mystery if you are a believer. If you believe god exists and can create a universe it's hardly a stretch to think he can make a planet.

I realise that many believe in the bible as history and not actually about god, but that surely is not a mystery either if you think "some sensible people thought of some good guidelines for life and wrote them down"

bloss · 30/03/2009 08:55

Message withdrawn

1Maya2 · 30/03/2009 10:18

The reason I am not a Christian is because of hell.

The accuracy or inaccuracy of the Bible is something that has come to interest me more recently.

But fundamentally, if there is a God that created everything. Created the rules and created heaven and hell, then I have a problem with that. Hell as described in the bible isn't death to me it is an eternal life of suffering. What right minded being would create that.

I came to the conclusion that I couldn't see myself sat in heaven having followed God's demands and be happy thinking of all these people in hell. Lots of Good people I imagine.

Also the God of the old testament didn't just see things go wrong and then try something new through Jesus. The God of the old testament was part of the problem. Some of the decisions he made were appalling.

In the past I was a christian because I thought it was a good thing to be. But I didn't see good in the bible, and I still don't.

Now I try to be a good person because it feels right. I have my own moral stance in life. And if there is a christian God then I will go to hell. Fortunatley, I don't beleive there is.

AMumInScotland · 30/03/2009 11:22

Not all Christians believe in the existence of Hell - if you look up the term "annihilationist" you'll find an explanation, but basically it is possible to believe that those who do not go to be with God at the end of this creation will simply cease to exist. Much of the imagery of Hell isn't from the Bible itself, but medieval Christianity, and the imagery that is in the Bible comes from a burning rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem.

For me, it is a question of unpicking the "universal" elements of Christianity from the cultural ones - as a liberal Christian, I believe that the Bible is a useful collection of writings which tell us a lot about humanity's relationship with God, but that it is affected by the thoughts and feelings and context of those who wrote it, so it's not just a question of saying "because the Bible says so", but of looking at why the people who wrote that passage felt and believed the way they did, and of interpreting that in the light of the similarities and differences in their lives and understanding.

alexpolismum · 30/03/2009 11:33

AMumInScotland -
I must say your approach sounds very reasonable. Although, as I have said previously, I am not a Christian, I think your standpoint and the historical context you put it in lends it credibility. I agree that there are some useful teachings in the NT, some nice parables, a little idealistic perhaps, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. However, you don't need to be a Christian to be a good Samaritan, for example.

That being said, your take on Christianity seems much more personal than others I have encountered.

Unfortunately, there are many Christians out there who want to take the Bible literally, and to be quite honest, they make the religion look ridiculous.

alexpolismum · 30/03/2009 11:51

bloss - even today I think the idea of the crucifixion is pretty gruesome, not just at that time!

The problem I have with it is that it doesn't make sense to me that God would sacrifice himself to himself. Christians say that it is in expiation for our sins, but since in Christian theology, it is God who is being sinned against, surely all he needs to do is wipe the slate clean (in a manner of speaking)! It seems as though he is going through the torturous crucifixion only to please himself.

You make the point that the enormity of sin bears an enormous consequence. The vast majority of people are not evil, do not commit murder, torture, rape, etc. I shouldn't think that most 'sins' are very grave!

bloss · 30/03/2009 14:41

Message withdrawn

onagar · 01/04/2009 23:52

Bloss, that was interesting. Especially about the definition of hell being seperation from god. I've heard that before on here, but thought it also meant no afterlife.

As you say yourself there are plenty of people who don't want god in their lives anyway so I'm not sure how this system provides any incentive/deterrent. Someone like myself who doesn't believe in god isn't going to do anything different in order to spend time with him.

In fact if it turned out that god existed (the god described by christians and the bible) then I wouldn't want anything to do with him anyway.

So if the ONLY punishment is seperation from god and we are all immortal anyway that suggests that people like me will be comfortably living in hell with like minded people for eternity. A good result from my point of view.

But you also say we can't earn our way into heaven so who does go to hell?

bloss · 02/04/2009 07:55

Message withdrawn

Original poster
Pinkfluffyslippers · 02/04/2009 08:40

Hi, I started this thread but have been incommunicado whilst we've been moving house and waiting for BT to switch on broadband. (BT work in a very mysterious way....but that's another story). Imagine my surprise when I logged on this morning for the first time in a week to find there's been this amazing debate going on in response to my query. Thank you very much for all your replies. Your answers are very interesting and educational. From just a quick look I've learnt heaps!
When all the boxes are unpacked I'm looking forward to sitting down and properly reading all your replies.

OP posts:
1Maya2 · 02/04/2009 08:49

Onagar I'm with you about being quite happy to spend eternity with like minded beings/people. Although I agree that the likelihood that any of it is true is quite low.

And even it is true I am thinking this ultimatum that God has set down, to beleive in him or go to hell is very strange. Even if I did believe I would morally choose not to go that route.

Bloss I have found amazing love, justice, comfort and friendship in the non-relgious world.

bloss · 02/04/2009 09:42

Message withdrawn

onagar · 02/04/2009 13:47

1Maya2, this god who makes ultimatums, slaughters millions and sulks a lot is not someone I'd want to spend time with anyway. I think I have made the occasional christian queasy by saying that if it turns out he exists I shall tell him where to go If I had a hero in the bible it would be Lucifer who from what I was taught had a mind of his own and some integrity, (The book of Job is a fascinating read)

Bloss, it seemed before that we were saying the consequence of not accepting god was the seperation form him. Which is my current state of course.

For it to be worse in hell and for my friends not to be my friends god must change something in them and me. A lobotomy to change our personalities? This appears to be an actual punishment on top of the seperation.

If god is currently causing me to be happy and nice to my friends than free will just went out the window and we are puppets anyway. Toys to be discarded if they don't work right.

onagar · 02/04/2009 13:52

Oh and as for god changing our minds I have been told he does that anyway if we go to heaven. Ask a priest questions about being happy in heaven without loved ones who didn't make it and they will say "oh you WILL be happy. God will MAKE you be happy with the situation"